DC Ferguson interviews Matthew Oldfield… with
I am Detective Constable 4078 FERGUSON of the Leicestershire
Constabulary currently stationed on the Major Crime Unit and
engaged on enquiries on Operation Task.
At 10:19 hours on Wednesday 9th April 2008 I was present at an
interview suite at Leicestershire Police Force Headquarters when
I commenced a recorded interview with the witness Matthew
OLDFIELD. The interview ceased at 11:22 hours.
This interview was recorded onto DVD and a master copy and a
working copy were produced.
I produce the master copy of this DVD as exhibit reference
S.V.F.115 and the working copy as exhibit reference
I have had the opportunity to read and check through a
transcript made of this interview and I produce the transcript
of the interview as exhibit reference S.V.F.116A
At 11:54 hours on Wednesday 9th April 2008 I was present at an
interview suite at Leicestershire Police Force Headquarters when
I commenced a recorded interview with the witness Matthew
OLDFIELD. The interview ceased at 13:08 hours.
This interview was recorded onto DVD and a master copy and a
working copy were produced.
I produce the master copy of this DVD as exhibit reference
S.V.F.117 and the working copy as exhibit reference
I have had the opportunity to read and check through a
transcript made of this interview and I produce the transcript
of the interview as exhibit reference S.V.F.118A.
At 14:14 hours on Wednesday 9th April 2008 I was present at an
interview suite at Leicestershire Police Force Headquarters when
I commenced a recorded interview with the witness Matthew
OLDFIELD. The interview ceased at 14:51 hours.
This interview was recorded onto DVD and a master copy and a
working copy were produced.
I produce the master copy of this DVD as exhibit reference
S.V.F.119 and the working copy as exhibit reference
Technical problems were experienced during this interview and no
data was recorded.
At 15:18 hours on Wednesday 9th April 2008 I was present at an
interview suite at Leicestershire Police Force Headquarters when
I commenced a recorded interview with the witness Matthew
OLDFIELD. The interview ceased at 15:38 hours.
This interview was recorded onto DVD and a master copy and a
working copy were produced.
I produce the master copy of this DVD as exhibit reference
S.V.F.121 and the working copy as exhibit reference
I have had the opportunity to read and check through a
transcript made of this interview and I produce the transcript
of the interview as exhibit reference S.V.F.122A.
During this interview process the witness Matthew OLDFIELD
marked on a copy of exhibit D.M.2 (a plan of the area) which is
now produced as exhibit reference M.O.1.
Later the same day I returned to Barunstone Police Station where
I placed all of the discs for the interviews and exhibit M.O.1
into a secure store.
At 15:10 hours on Monday 14th April 2008 I it out of the secure
store and handed exhibit M.O.1 to exhibits officer 7383 CRAVEN.
At 15:50 hours on Monday 14th April 2008 I handed exhibits
S.V.F.115, 116, 117, 118, 119, 120, 121 and 122 to
exhibits officer 7383 CRAVEN having taken them out of the secure
AT 8:15 hours on 8th May 2008 I took exhibits S.V.F.116,
S.V.F.118 and S.V.F.122 from Exhibits Officer CRAVEN and
retained possession of them until 09:00am on Friday 9th May 2008
when I returned them to Exhibits Officer CRAVEN.
This statement is made by myself and is true to the best of my
knowledge and belief.
Signed: S FERGUSON
RECORD OF TAPE RECORDED INTERVIEW Police Exhibit No SVF116A
Person Interviewed: Matthew OLDFIELD Number of Pages 36
Place of Interview: Force Headquarters Enderby Signature of
Date of Interview: 09/04/08 Officer producing exhibit
Time Commenced: 1019 hours
Time Concluded: 1122 hours Duration of Interview: 63 minutes
Interviewing Officer(s) DC 4078 FERGUSON Tape Reference nos:
Other Persons Present None
Tape counter times Person speaking Text
00.00.02 4078 'We are recording okay. So the time is now
eighteen minutes past ten and it is the ninth of April in the
year two thousand and eight. We are in an interview room here at
Leicestershire Police Headquarters. I am DC Sophie FERGUSON, I
work in the Major Crime Unit here in Leicestershire. Could you
just give us your full name please''
Reply 'Matthew David OLDFIELD'.
4078 'Thank you. And your date of birth Matthew''
Reply 'Fourth of January nineteen sixty-nine'.
4078 'And your home address''
Reply 'Twenty Sutherland Gardens, East Sheen, London, S, W,
fourteen, eight, D,B'.
4078 'Thank you. And just to put things in context. You are
married to Rachael MAMPILLY''
Reply 'That's right'.
4078 'And you have a daughter called Grace who is now two, is
Reply 'Two and a half, she'll be three in September'.
4078 'And you went on holiday with, erm, in company with the
McCANN family last year''
00.00.48 4078 'Which is obviously why you are here. This
interview is at the request of the Portuguese Police and they
will be monitoring this interview partly, you know, sometimes
they will be, sometimes they wont be. You have been given a
letter from us outlining the objectives for this interview, but
please ask at any time if there is anything you want
Reply 'No, it was clear, I understand'.
4078 'And also if I mumble and you cant understand what I am
saying, just remind me, because I do forget and I run away with
Reply 'I think you speak more clearly than I do, but, yeah,
4078 'Nevertheless, just say, you know, if you want to slow down
4078 'Your time and co-operation is obviously appreciated, but I
would just ask you to be patient with me as, no doubt, we will
be covering things that you have been over time and time again'.
4078 'With the Police and, you know, by yourselves'.
4078 'I am going to ask you to concentrate as much as you can
and try to recall what you heard, saw and did around the third
of May two thousand and seven. Let me know if you need to take a
break. And I intend to ask fairly open questions and then, as I
said earlier, things that haven't been covered in that process,
we will go back and ask more closed questions'.
4078 'So I can tick the boxes that we need to tick today'.
Reply 'Right. Okay'.
00.01.55 4078 'Did that make sense''
4078 'Before we go on to the holiday, can you just give me some
background in relation to how you know the McCANNS in the first
Reply 'Yeah, erm, primarily the connection is through, erm,
Russell and Jane, erm, Russell was Rachael and mine Best Man and
we've been good friends since we went to University together in
Leicester and originally he went out with a girl in my year
called Ann SMITH and then when I was looking for accommodation
Ann mentioned that he had a space in his house, so there was two
girls, Russell, Paul and myself and we made up the house and we
sort of shared the rental at a house there and we've sort of
been friends ever since and then, as I say, he was Best Man for
Rachael and I when we got married in nineteen ninety-nine, erm,
and we stayed in contact pretty much since. We've been on hol,
well we'll probably come onto holiday and stuff later. But
through Russell I know David, who was also at Leicester Medical
School, and Fiona WEBSTER, who is also, erm, Fiona PAYNE as she
is now, erm, it was also at Leicester Medical School and they
were two years behind me, so they graduated in ninety-four and I
graduated in ninety-two, they know Gerry and Kate or they knew
them on a much sort of more friendly level than, than I did.
Erm, so I knew Gerry because we worked together in,
I think, two thousand and two, erm, when we were at the
Leicester General Hospital, so we knew each other on the, erm,
on call rota, so we'd be together at sort of medical meetings,
erm, but we didn't sort of socialise more than sort of a quick
chat at that point in time. And then we really got to know them
when David and Fiona got married in two thousand and three, when
we went, when they got, they were married in Italy and we, erm,
there was a big group of people that went out, erm, all the
group that were out in Portugal were there as well, and we
shared an apartment with Gerry and Kate and Madeleine, she was
about sort of four months old then, four months, it was around
about September so she'd be about four or five months old then,
and there were other people within the apartment, there was
Stuart and Tara and,
I think that was it, I think there was six adults and the
children, and so we spent sort of a long weekend there for the
wedding and so we got to know them a little bit at that point.
But then we didn't really have any other contact, apart from,
erm, hearing about them through David and Fiona and Russell and
Jane, erm, from them. And then the holiday came about because,
erm, independently we'd been on sort of various holidays and
we'd sort of often talked about them, you know, sort of being
friends and we then went on a joint holiday to Greece the year
before with David and Fiona, Russell and Jane, erm, but not with
the McCANNs, we'd been to Greece, erm, and sort of spent a week
on the beach there and then sort of thought about booking a
holiday the next year and then Dave and Fiona, I think they'd
already been on holiday with Gerry and Kate on another occasion,
they wanted to involve them in the group and we ended up going
for a MARK WARNER complex in Portugal. Erm, that was, erm, we'd
been to, as I say, some of us had been to MARK WARNER, erm,
various MARK WARNER resorts before, we'd been to the Greek one
in Lemnos, erm, originally before Grace was born, it was just a
last minute deal and it was great, it was all inclusive, we all
like sport, erm, and sunshine and, erm, it was sort of all
inclusive and it was just a very, erm, sort of relaxing sort of
place to go, so we went out there and we were quite keen to do
that again because everybody in the group is pretty sporty, erm,
and if you have a lot of people together you can share sort of
the child care arrangements and its also very relaxing for
Because when we went to Greece it was like the fastest holiday
I'd ever been on because there was only about an hour when they
were asleep at lunch each day and a couple of hours in the
evening where you were actually sort off child care duties, so
the week went by in about sort of six hours, it was all sort of,
it was very quick. And so we, we went, we talked about whether
we'd go back to MARK WARNER, I think, and David and Fiona had
looked at various resorts and, erm, chose the Portugal one
because it fitted better with time. Erm, in terms of, I mean,
originally we were booked, we got the, we actually (inaudible)
got the week off that they, that sort of fitted, but we were
originally going to go to the Lake District with Rachaels
parents but we ended up going, saying that, yes, we'd move that
and change that for another week and go out. Erm, and various
emails, everybody got sort of tied down to doing it and we
booked and then went out'.
00.06.45 4078 'In relation to Gerry and Kate then, just to
clarify what you have said. You met them at David and Fionas
4078 'In two thousand and three in Italy. And you stayed, you
shared an apartment with them then. Have you met them socially
between then and now very often''
Reply 'No, no, we, erm, I know that some of the other groups
would, but I think mainly because we were no longer Leicester
based, because we left Leicester in two thousand and, end of two
thousand and three beginning of two thousand and four, because I
got a job down in Kingston because I came to the end of my
training, and so we moved out, erm, from there. But in between
the times that we were still at Leicester, two thousand and
three would have been the wedding, so the end of two thousand
and three, because I started at Kingston in February two
thousand and four and we didnt sort of socialise, I dont think
we met them at all after the wedding, before, erm, before we
left to go down to London. But I know Russ and Jane and Dave and
Fiona would have been to sort of the birthday parties, erm, but
more because they were Leicester based really. And we weren't,
hadn't become sort of that close from that small visit in
4078 'So the first time you had seen them or had anything to do
with them really again was this holiday last May''
Reply 'Yeah, I mean, we knew about them because Fiona, Dave and
Fiona were sort of close friends with them and I think Fiona and
Kate trained at some point (inaudible) training or knew each
other in that way, so we'd hear about them, but it was, erm,
Gerry and Kate and then Dave and Fi at this end and then Russ
and Jane sort of sort of thing, it was like that'.
4078 'Okay. And the holiday that you had booked starting the
twenty-eighth of April''
00.08.24 4078 'Saturday I think that was'.
4078 'Do you remember where you flew from''
Reply 'Erm, we flew from Gatwick. We certainly flew from,
Russell and Jane came down with us, erm, and the rest of the
group went from, erm, from Leicester, from East Midlands, erm,
simply because they didn't want to come down or get up very
early, because MARK WARNER flights are always particularly
early, so they'd need to come down and stay overnight and then
drive down sort of very early in the morning, so Russell and
Jane came to us and then we went down to, erm, to Gatwick from,
from, erm, from our house. And there was a bit of a problem with
the, with the transport, because we'd booked a taxi and we'd
said 'Look, we've got three children, four adults and loads of
baggage for a week, it's got to be big enough' and he turned up
in sort of like a standard and said 'It's all fine', we needed
two child seats and a booster seat, and he turned up in sort of
like a standard size taxi and then tried to get us into two and
we're going, 'Oh no, we can't do that', so we booked into a sort
of a valet parking thing, we'd used before at Gatwick, we drove
down there and parked in that, it was all a bit of a sort of a
rush at the end but got through'.
4078 'Last minute stress, which you dont need with little
children, I am sure'.
4078 'I know from speaking to Jane yesterday that you and Jane
and Russell arrived slightly earlier than the rest of the group,
with flight times''
Reply 'We arrived earlier, yeah'.
4078 'So if you can tell me what you remember from when you
arrived at the resort''
Reply 'Erm, I mean, we'd sort of came in by (inaudible) and we
arrived, we got on the bus, we were allocated rooms on the bus,
that's a question that's been asked before, so we had the, you
know, the choice about where we were going to stay, we'd had the
keys with our names on it, erm, we pulled outside the entrance
to the Tapas Bar in the bus and MARK WARNER staff sort of met us
and took the luggage and helped us get it up to the room, erm,
we must have arrived around lunchtime because there was an issue
about where are we going to eat, are we going to get food, and I
think on that first day we popped down to the Supermarket, there
was a Supermarket just down the street, as you may be aware, to
just sort of get snacks and things, because I think the Tapas
Bar doesn't open, wasn't open on that transfer day, so we'd have
probably sort of sorted food out and I think we were then
unpacking in the rooms when, erm, the rest of the guys arrived
and they came in by taxi so they actually pulled into the car
park at the back, I remember going out to sort of meet them and
say hello to them'.
00.10.53 4078 'Okay. Bear in mind, obviously I have seen maps
and plans, but my mind just doesn't retain that kind of
information particularly well, it is a failing on my part, that
I am going to ask you if you can describe things in detail'.
4078 'So that I can picture it in my mind as we are going
through, because then it makes it easier for me to understand
the logistics of what you are saying as well'.
4078 'Just grab my water. Feel free to help yourself to drinks
and things if you need to. I say drinks, there is only water
available, just tell me if you want something else'.
Reply 'Yeah, that's fine'.
4078 'Right. So you have arrived at the resort, you have been
allocated an apartment''
4078 'And presumably you have gone and settled into your
4078 'Can you describe to me where your apartment was''
Reply 'Yeah, erm, so there's the, the apartment block, erm, are
at one side to the, erm, let's think how best to describe it,
it's all based around a T-junction essentially. So, erm, the
apartment blocks, erm, runs along parallel to this bit and you
go down the T-junction which goes down a hill about, oh, the
distance now in memory must be, erm, sort of thirty yards,
thirty or forty yards, and there's an entrance through a sort of
a walled enclosure into the Tapas and sort of pool area and
within that there's sort of like sun loungers, there's a big
sort of kidney shaped pool and a smaller children's pool at the
far end of the, erm, far end of the complex and you've got the
Tapas Restaurant which runs closer to the, on the far side of
the pool from the apartment block and behind that there is a
cr'he, where we dropped Grace off to, coming back out of there
you come, pool behind you, you come out the door, left, up the
hill to the T-junction and you turn left just to get round the,
the walls that sort of enclosed the, erm, well it's just little
walls, which would enclose the back of the apartment block where
we accessed the apartments from and you'd walk across a small
car park, erm, into, to access the apartments there'.
00.12.59 4078 'Right'.
Reply 'Erm, you go under the sort of, the way that the stairwell
goes and the way that the balconies go, you actually walk, I
think you walk under, there's sort of like a roof made by the
above apartments and things to get to our doorway and so there
were, sorry, stop me if I'.
4078 'Sorry, no, just before I forget to ask. The car park that
4078 'Does that divide the apartments and the road, is the car
Reply 'Yeah, so you've got a road and then you've got a car
park, erm, and then the apartment block and there's sort of two
blocks of apartments, we were all in one, but if you walked to
the far end of the car park there'd be a sort of little wall and
I think there was a little access, you can either swing your
legs over a wall to get into it but then there was another car
park for another apartment block. Erm, so you came through the
car park, the apartment block's in front of us and then there
were four apartments, ours was five 'B', which was pretty much
straight ahead of you just angling off to the left, there was an
empty apartment five 'C' and then there was five 'D' where
Russell and Jane were, so we were practically, sort of doors
opening, not quite see each other but just about and then to get
to Gerry and Kate's apartment, who were five 'A', you turn left
along a sort of a small wall that separate, that went parallel
to the side of the building, but only went to there, to their
entrance and then it was sort of dead ended and you go round the
corner there to get into their apartment'.
00.14.12 4078 'Okay. So if you were walking let's say from the
Tapas Bar towards your apartment''
4078 'You wouldn't pass by, directly pass outside Gerry and
Reply 'No, because of this, you'd have the wall coming out,
which would make it the bedrooms, yeah, which made it the
bedroom wall, so you walk past that, you wouldn't actually go
through that. There are other ways to get into the apartments,
the patio doors, which I will talk about in a second, because
dividing, erm, you've got the apartment block, so you've got the
road, you've got the, erm, the car park going that way and
you've got the apartments where we were and it's a multi-storey,
because I haven't mentioned Dave and Fi who were five 'H', I
think five 'H''.
4078 'Yeah, I think that sounds about right'.
Reply 'And you'd go up the stairs to them, they were the only
people on the next floor up, and that's because they had, no,
but that's just where their apartment was, they weren't next to
us, I think it was to give them a two bedroom place, enough
bedrooms for the children, they had a bigger apartment as well,
I think to get Di in there as well. Erm, so you've got the
apart, you've got the road, you've got the car park, you've got
the apartments and then if walk through the apartments you've
got patio doors that overlook the Tapas Restaurant and the pool
area, but they are separated from that by a small sort of
garden, which is just about the width of this room and then
there's a sort of a small metal gate that you go out onto a sort
of a passageway which runs between the walls that make up your
back garden and the wall circling the Tapas and the swimming
pool complex, so you could walk through those gates, turn left
to get back onto the road and go down the hill to turn back into
00.15.53 4078 'I have got a couple of plans and some photographs
and with you talking about it I think I have pretty much got it
in context. And the bit that I found difficult yesterday was I
assumed that you would walk straight past the bedroom window
where Madeleine had been staying''
4078 'Until Jane clarified for me that there was the car park in
4078 'So actually the only reason to be there would be because
you were specifically going into that apartment''
Reply 'Yeah, that's right'
4078 'This plan there was obviously is Gerry and Kate's
apartment, five 'A'''
4078 'And partially your apartment there, look''
Reply 'And so you've got the road that goes down the hill with
the Tapas down here, you've got the car park here and you've got
the top road, erm, (inaudible), erm, a road up there'.
4078 'And what we did yesterday was we called the doors this
side the 'roadside doors' and the other side the 'poolside
4078 'Because I think there has been some confusion in the past
about front and back doors'.
Reply 'Yes, yeah, it depends which way you call the front and
the back, yeah, that makes, erm, that makes sense, yeah'.
00.17.06 4078 'Right. So where were we. You have arrived and you
have settled in your apartment, you think you may have gone to
the Supermarket. And do you remember what happened when the rest
of the group arrived''
Reply 'Erm, I think, I mean, they would have had to settle into
their, and not particularly clearly at this stage, but, I mean,
the, that evening, in terms of what was going to happen and
where we were going to get food, slightly different, in that,
they did an arrival meet and greet at the Millennium Restaurant,
which was, erm, slightly distant from the apartment complex,
rather than the Tapas, the Tapas was closed for that night and
there was also an opportunity to meet sort of the child care
people and all of the sort of sports and activities people. So I
think, I think at about sort of, erm, I'm not absolutely certain
about this, but I think at about four o'clock we also went
poolside, four or five o'clock, and that's where you met the
Nannies who'd be looking after, you know, the children the next
day, so I think we, you know, you met that time and then it was
packing up and going over to, erm, the Millennium Restaurant and
having tea and then coming back and putting everybody down'.
Reply 'So we all ate that evening at the Millennium with, erm,
with the kids, except, erm, expect I was feeling unwell so I
didn't each much but I was still at the Restaurant that night'.
4078 'Right. And what were your interests, what did you intend
to sort of be doing that week''
Reply 'Erm, sailing, for me, because, erm, it's, it's a thing I
really enjoy but don't have any opportunity to at home. Erm, I
mean, they're big on, erm, water sports, MARK WARNER, I mean,
they do lots of other things as well, football on the beach and
all those sort of things, but really, for me it's, it was an
opportunity to sort of get sailing, erm, and tennis, which was
the original reason we chose MARK WARNER when we went, because
we'd just sort of taken up tennis and wanted to sort of, you
know, to be able to play, erm, and so those were the two things
that we anticipated doing most of. I mean, the other guys wanted
to learn how to wind surf and wanted to learn how to sail
because they had only done very little of it or not at all, but
wind surfing I'd done plenty of it and don't really find it
that, I thought I'd really like it because it's sort of lots of
equipment, it's technical and it's sports as well, but it just
doesn't work quite for me, but sailing, sailing does and I'd
have gone sailing'.
00.19.25 4078 'So did you have to sign up during the welcome
meeting to what you wanted to do''
Reply 'Yeah, yeah, except the guys signed up for, for sort of
introductory lessons in sailing and wind surfing, so I think
that took at least two, erm, two mornings of their week and
there as no point me doing that introductory bit because you
just take the boats out, so I just sort of intended to go down
and sail at the same time they were having lessons, erm, and
then there was, there was tennis as well'.
4078 'Did you play tennis every day''
Reply 'No, erm, no, I think, I think we tried to play tennis,
because they two things, they do sort of organised lessons and
we signed up for some lessons which got delayed for weather
reasons later in the week, I can't remember if we signed up for
those straight away, because we didn't do a group, we didn't do
a group lesson which we'd done, when did we do a group lesson, I
don't think we did, I think we just did, Rachael and I, erm,
with, erm, with an instructor, because I think we felt we'd play
sort of socially with everybody else and then we'd have, do some
sort of private lessons rather than signing up all week. I'm not
sure about that. I don't remember playing any organised games
with anybody else, I think we just had sort of three, sort of
two or three, erm, proper tennis lessons'.
4078 'Do you remember when they were''
Reply 'Erm, I know there was one on the last Thursday, because
it got moved over from Wednesday, because Wednesday it rained
and Thursday was a pretty decent day for weather, erm, so it
would probably have been, if I'm thinking it's three, it would
probably have been Monday, Tuesday and Thursday, but I can't
Reply 'I know we played social tennis with the men in the
evening, erm, on that Thursday and we actually, because there
weren't that many people around, erm, and we actually asked them
whether they could move the tennis forward so they could go to
the social tennis, because it was actually later and it would
have gone across bath time so at least half of us wouldn't have
been able to, erm, wouldn't have been able to go, so they
actually moved it forward and I think they moved it to six
o'clock from either seven or six thirty, I think we'd asked for
it to actually be moved to five thirty but it wasn't obviously
fair on everybody else, in terms of guests, so they didn't move
it completely forward, but they certainly moved it forward by at
least half an hour'.
00.21.49 4078 'And that as on the Thursday''
Reply 'They moved it for ever night, erm, but, erm, the Thursday
I remember because it was the men's social and we didn't think
we were going to be able to, to get there because we were
already a bit late down the beach, but we'd had sort of a bit of
free time, we'd already had our sort of time off child care, if
you like, and we didn't know whether the girls were going to
give us a pass to do it, but they did late, so we ended up going
to it, but sort of quite late for it, we were pretty late by the
4078 'Okay. And I am going to ask, and you may not be able to do
this, but I am going to ask if we can go through Sunday, Monday,
Tuesday, Wednesday, and I appreciate that they are all going to
be probably a bit of a blur'.
4078 'If there is nothing specific that reminds you of which day
was which then that is, you know, we can't help that, but I will
go through that process anyway and then it might trigger
something, if it doesn't, it doesn't'.
Reply 'Yeah, I mean, I think I'll struggle with that'.
Reply 'But I think the, I mean, I can remember bits of the
Wednesday because we did things that were slightly different
because it rained. I can remember much more about Thursday
because obviously we talked about it much more'.
00.22.52 4078 'You said that on Saturday you were feeling a
little bit unwell''
Reply 'Saturday I felt unwell, didn't eat much in the evening,
which for a free buffet is pretty unusual for me, and then I
started throwing up in the evening and I ascribed it to, when we
were on the plane on the way out, they were giving out the meals
and, you know, all the kids had been changing seats, so there
was, I was sat with, erm, Ella, which is, erm, Russell and
Jane's eldest daughter and maybe Evie on one side and maybe
grace as well, but one of the meals that came round the plastic
had already come off and it was in front of Ella and I said 'You
have mine just in case there's something wrong with it' and so I
blamed that I felt sick that perhaps I was right, it had sort of
gone off or something. It may not have been, it may just have
been a bug or something, but I usually don't get diarrhoea and
vomiting, I mean, I can't remember the last time I've been sick.
Erm, but I started feeling a little bit queasy in the evening
and then the, erm, the Saturday evening into the Sunday morning
I was actually throwing up, which is just incredibly rare for
me. So I felt completely icky all the day Sunday, so I think to
try and avoid infecting anybody else, I didn't do much outside
the apartment and certainly in the evening I didn't go for, erm,
didn't go for dinner with everybody else'.
4078 'That is Sunday out the way with then'.
Reply 'So Sunday was pretty much a write-off and I was thinking,
oh, the start of my holiday and I'm not doing anything that
4078 'Yeah. So Monday was really your first proper holiday day''
Reply 'So Monday would have been the first proper holiday day.
Erm, in the mornings we, Grace, Rachael and I always had
breakfast at the Millennium, apart from the day I was feeling,
erm, feeling funny. And I think we were the, I think we saw Jane
most days. Gerry and Kate came the first, I think came the first
day, or maybe the evening, but then started making their
breakfast all the time, because they had three kids to get there
and the Millennium was a good ten minute walk along roads with
sort of, where you had to actually cross into the road to get
round because of obstructions on the pavement and there was
quite a lot of sort of fast, although it wasn't sort of like a
busy road, but the traffic that did come occasionally came
through quite fast, so it was quite a long, erm, a long walk to
get there, so they decided that it wasn't worth the hassle and
they would just eat and have breakfast in their apartment, so
they certainly didn't eat there after that first day, if they
made it the first day, I think the group did eat the first day.
Erm, what I did on Monday, I don't know, I would have tried to
get out on the water at some point and I'm sure we'd have played
00.25.25 4078 'Was there anybody that you particular spent more
time with than the others, sort of there was a lot of you in the
4078 'Did you tend to spend more time with any particular couple
Reply 'Erm, I probably spent more time with Russell because, oh
and probably Dave, because we knew them better and also, erm,
Gerry and Kate were much more organised about, erm about their
sort of day and what they did and they had signed up for tennis
lessons, or did they do tennis group, so they were sort of
fairly committed. But we would sort of end up sort of, so, you
know, obviously on a Monday we'd have breakfast and then, this
is like for every day, we'd then go and drop off at Nursery and
so we'd drop Grace off and she didn't really like it and so it
was a little bit traumatic, she was actually fine when she was
there, which is a typical thing. So you'd go and you'd drop her
and then you'd be on to do what you'd do next and at some point
we did play tennis, erm, we may well have done that on the first
day because it was kind of the easiest thing to do. I don't
remember who we played or even if we did that. And the morning
would finish around twelve, twelve thirty, we'd then pick Grace,
we'd go and, erm, there wasn't really much in the, in the Tapas
Restaurant for kids so much, we tended to bring, come back to
the apartment and actually sort of do some pasta and or beans or
whatever she fancied eating and we'd sort of feed there. And
initially I think we did that in our own apartment and we were
sort of like chatting over the walls to Gerry and Kate on one
side and when the top tier looked over they could see us as
well. So we'd do that, she'd go down to sleep about half past
twelve, erm, and then that was a relax time, so we'd either
sunbathe or read on the outside. And on every lunchtime that I
could get away with it, either myself and Dave or one or two of
us would go and go down to the waterfront and take a canoe out
or a kayak out and sort of bob about in the water. Erm, in the
afternoons we didn't take Grace back to Nursery, erm, so we'd
keep her with us, she'd sleep sort of, she'd sleep half twelve
to sort of one o'clock and if we were upstairs eating with Dave
and Fiona, as we did much more towards the end of the week, erm,
then she'd maybe sleep 'til half past three and so we'd be up
and either playing by the pool or, erm, we might go down to the,
we went down to the beach but that was on the Thursday. Erm,
yeah, erm, Gerry and Kate put their kids back into the cr'he
each afternoon. Erm, David and Fi were a bit more sort of varied
about it. And I think Russell and Jane also kept Evie and Ella
out, so we'd often pop round to their apartment'.
00.28.06 4078 'So the afternoons were more kind of play it by
4078 'Around the children and depending on whether they slept or
(inaudible) and how much you could get away with''
Reply 'How much you can get away with, it didn't kind of work,
it was, it's fairly even. So Rachael and Jane or somebody would
go, certainly on the Thursday, because the Thursday is easier to
remember for obviously reasons, but Rachael and Jane played
tennis that lunchtime and then came back and Russell and I went
off to the beach, erm'.
4078 '(inaudible) to take care of Grace (inaudible)'.
Reply 'Yeah, there was always that sort of, oh she's gone down
to sleep, you know. But, erm, it was quite a nice opportunity to
sort of sunbathe and read books and'.
4078 'What was the weather like during the week''
Reply 'Erm, it was sunny but cold, the pools were freezing, so
we didn't, even though the pool was there, it was unusual for
people to be in it. Erm, sunny most days, it got cloudy and it
rained on the Wednesday and the Wednesday evening was pretty
sort of, in the evenings it was very cold, so at the Tapas
Restaurant, when we were there, we'd often, you know, you'd need
a jumper if you sat outside and there was no heat particularly,
erm, and I think Thursday was sort of fairly similar and quite,
well certainly at night and I think the rest had been sort of
maybe a little bit overcast at times but I'm not really bothered
about the sunbathing and if there was a wind you could go
sailing and that was'.
00.29.32 4078 'Yeah. So it was a win win situation for you''
Reply 'No, it didn't really matter to me. Although if it wasn't
sunny then Rachael wouldn't be sunbathing and she'd be off
playing tennis and so I'd be'.
4078 'Okay. Do you remember the Monday evening, it probably
would have been your first trip to the Tapas Bar, I would
Reply 'Erm, I remember it only in terms of it then became the
same as it was every, every evening. So after the first night
they ate they said, you know, it was all, you know, it was nice.
Erm, because the options for eating in the evening, because
Rachael actually booked the restaurant for the rest of the week
after the first time on the Sunday night when they ate and it
was all very successful. And because, the whole point of going
to MARK WARNER, apart from, you know, the sort of the sport and
things, is this issue of child care, which of course has changed
for us completely now, but when you go to (inaudible) or you go
to the other ones, they tend to be sort of a compound, I mean,
they're not sealed from people from the outside, but they're
sort of self-enclosed, erm, there's a warden sort of at the gate
house, but you can walk in and out pretty freely, and they do a
baby listening service, erm, so they have a number of the
Nannies who are on rota who will sit at the bottom of the,
Lemnos was sort of like lots of little cottages, not cottages,
little sort of flats, apartments going up on two hillsides, and
so they would walk round, erm, you know, round and went past all
the, erm, apartments and have a listen at the door to see
whether anybody was crying or upset and at the start of the
evening, as you went past, you'd give them your room number and
where you were going to be and then if they heard anybody crying
you'd then be taken back up the, erm, you know, they'd find you
in the restaurant and you'd go up to the door and see what was
going on. And that was the sort of thing that we were looking
for when we booked the MARK WARNER because, it kind of seems
funny when you look at it from this perspective, but at the
time, it was just about having a safe environment where, you
know, the kids, because all the time and all through this, the
thing you ever worry about is, if I leave them alone and
they're, you think that they're safe because they're all locked,
you're not really thinking that anything horrible would happen,
you think, what happens if they wake up and they're crying and
you're not there and, you know, they're going to be upset and
you think, well, you know, if they've got this then it's going
to be ten minutes at the most, erm, and it's going to be awful
and you'll feel bad about it if it happens, but Grace is a
really good sleeper and, you know, we've got that sort of safety
net, so we were looking for that for Praia da Luz. And it was
one of the things that made us think, maybe we shouldn't go,
because when we were trying to book, you know, it said it's a
village, it's not enclosed, it's sort of apartments throughout
the village and, erm, there isn't a baby listening service and
we can't guarantee that you'll be together, you know, because I
think there were three centres, there's one up by the
Millennium, there's one Ocean Club and then there was the one
near the main entrance, and so we were concerned that if one
member of the group, we were all going, oh perhaps we'll be the
Billy no mates, the really unpopular ones will get stuck at the
Millennium and, you know, we won't be able to, we won't be able
to go out and visit our friends because we're not going to
leave, you know, we're not going to leave to, erm, to go and see
them and we won't be able to share child care and so it would be
fairly difficult and it was a big issue because they couldn't
guarantee, the couldn't allocate the rooms, erm, for us and they
said it'll have to wait until you get in the resort, erm, but in
the end it was sort of quite quiet and so they sort of could
stick us really close together. I can't remember why I started
talking about that''
00.33.03 4078 'It is because we talked about your first night at
the Tapas Bar and then you came on to say the routine would have
been the same as every night'.
00.33.07 4078 'So you were just going to cover the arrangements
that had been put in place for checking on the children''
Reply 'Right. And so the Tapas seemed to fit because, because
you didn't feel far away from the room, it felt so quiet and
very safe and it was sort of a minutes walk, if that, you know,
the actual distance seemed quite, you know, you were sort of
falsely reassured, but obviously at this point you could see the
back of your apartment, not hugely clearly, but you can sort of
see the apartment block, erm, you know, you could see if the
light came on, for instance, or you felt that you'd be able to
see if the light came on and, you know, because we were sort of
going what we thought was every sort of ten or fifteen minutes,
basically between courses, then you could go. And rather than go
and find another restaurant where not everybody would be able to
go because somebody would need to be babysitting, it seemed most
sensible just to, to stay put in the same place, erm, because
the food was pretty reasonable and just trekking everywhere else
was going to make it such a headache for the child care. And
then this issue of, well you do just put the kids in with
babysitters, because they were in a sort of a Nanny sort of a
night drop-off service, but that kind of felt less safe, in
that, one, they wouldn't sleep or Grace wouldn't, we'd be
worried that she wouldn't particularly sleep and she'd be
worried and it'd be difficult to drop her off because she really
didn't like being dropped off at the Nursery, erm, which I
always tried to avoid that chore, I did it on the Thursday, but
she didn't like it and she wouldn't go to sleep particular well
with sort of strangers in a room when people would be coming in
and out to collect their children'.
4078 'It would be unsettling for her'.
Reply 'So it actually seemed a worse choice than just being
close but not actually in the room (inaudible)'.
4078 'Was there an actual discussion between the group of you as
to the sort of fifteen minute checks or ten minute checks or
whatever or was it something that you as a couple had decided on
and then the circumstances during the week meant that everyone
had sort of taken it in turns to check''
Reply 'No, we pretty much checked our, well certainly we checked
our own and it was only the last night that we offered to check
for Gerry and Kate. It just, we are sort of fairly similar, our
sort of views on sort of child care and that it was important,
we're sort of from the same background, we have sort of similar
issues about sort of child rearing, which is why we sort of get
on and there was nothing obvious that anybody would do anything
particularly different. I mean, Russell and Jane sort of, erm,
are sort of fairly relaxed and easy going, erm, and Dave and Fi
are sort of a bit disorganised and a bit late and Gerry and Kate
are much more organised and we sort of fit sort of between that
end of between, between that end of the scale and Russell and
Jane. So it was all sort of, it was just sort of natural, we
didn't decide, oh we'll do this, it just sort of came at natural
breaks, we'd come down and we'd go between sort of courses to
sort of check, but we usually, we'd check our own and, as far as
I know, that didn't really change. Although, because it wouldn't
seem, certainly for Russell and Jane I'd be happy to check for
their children because they know me and if, you know, they had
been awake and I went in they wouldn't be particularly, erm, you
know, they wouldn't be particularly shocked or surprised or not
know who I was, but Gerry and Kate and their children I didn't
know them so well, so I wouldn't and certainly at the beginning
of the week have offered to check their children or assumed that
that would be okay, it was only at the end of the week when we
seemed to know each other better and our routines and everybody
seemed to be doing the same thing that it seemed to be a nice
thing to do to offer to save them a trip'.
00.36.24 4078 'Yeah'.
Reply 'But, no, the, there was no sort of formal arrangement, as
far as I know, for, for when we would go and check on the kids,
we just went at sort of convenient times as we could'.
4078 'Okay. So I know you can't specifically remember the Monday
evening, but that began with the sort of weekly routine
4078 'Was there, had there been, also before the Thursday, had
there been any problems with that routine''
Reply 'No, erm, anything out of the usual or out of the
00.36.58 4078 'Yeah, was there anything that sort of made you
more anxious about Grace's welfare''
4078 'Had she woken up on any of those occasions''
Reply 'No, not that we know. I mean, she may have, I mean, she's
a good sleeper and we put her down about half seven, so we had
about an hour to make sure that she settled well, but she was so
tired from going to Nursery and being out and playing with all
of the others that, erm, you know, she slept like a top. Erm,
there was nothing unusual, we never sort of came in and had, had
a sort of a worry about her not being happy or being well'.
4078 'So the overall effect of that, I am assuming, would be
that you were really quite relaxed on that holiday, you were
doing things that you enjoyed doing''
4078 'Grace was occupied and happy''
4078 'And in the evening you had felt very sure that she was
sufficiently tired for you to go and have your meal and you and
Rachael would take it in turns to check on her''
Reply 'Yeah, yeah'.
Reply 'I mean, we'd be, we'd be back by, there was only one time
that we ever went out for a drink after the meal, so normally
the meal would finish around sort of ten and we'd tootle off
back. And I was ill on one night, Rachael was ill on the
Wednesday night and so the Wednesday night was the only time
that I stayed out any later than that. So it was, and we'd
already (inaudible), so it was sort of like an hour and a half
of time that we were away, maybe two hours'.
00.38.15 4078 'Was there anything different about the Tuesday
that you can recall''
Reply 'Erm, no, I don't remember anything specific about, about
that day. I mean, Rachael became ill on the Tuesday night. Grace
had, the thing that would have made it really horrible, when I
became unwell, was for everybody then to go down with D and V,
and we were sort of very worried that it would go first to Grace
and then to the kids and then back up to everybody and
completely ruin the entire trip for everybody, and Grace had
loose nappies nearly every day, but until after Madeleine went,
erm, disappeared, she was never sick and on a couple of
occasions then she was sick, but she had sort of fairly loose
nappies. Rachael became I think unwell over the Tuesday night
and was, erm, mostly sort of pottering about the apartment on
the Wednesday. But, apart from that, I don't remember anything
else about the Tuesday'.
4078 'Okay. So, by the Wednesday then, Rachael was pretty much
confined to the apartment, if you like''
4078 'And do you remember what you did that day''
Reply 'Erm, I remember I went running with Kate at lunchtime,
she's quite a good runner, and we went out on the road all the
way up to the main junc, erm, the sort of main road where you
access Praia da Luz from and then back'.
4078 'What sort of distance would that be''
Reply 'Erm, yeah, I think it'd be about three or four miles,
maybe each way'.
4078 'And you run, do you often run''
Reply 'Erm, no, I don't like it, but I quite like it on holiday
when it's a bit warmer and it's not so bad on your joints and I
quite like running on the beach, because it feels quite sort of
Bay Watch and it's kind of Californian'.
4078 'In your own mind, yeah'.
Reply 'Yeah, yeah, yeah, and then I woke up. But, erm, yeah,
but, erm, no, she's quite a good runner and I quite enjoy it
every now and again, but, if it's sort of unusual and you're
sort of exploring a bit'.
00.40.05 4078 'And how did'.
Reply 'I can't remember how that came about'.
4078 'That is what I was going to ask'.
Reply 'Yeah, erm, it may have been that, because I think Kate
might have run most days, because she was quite a keen runner,
and it may just be that either I thought I'd go for a run and
she was already changed, or I was changed and, or Gerry might
have said that, erm, I'm speculating, it may just have been
coincidence that we both got into running gear and then decided
to run together'.
4078 'But you went on this route and are saying you found it
quite hard to keep up''
Reply 'Yeah, well, yeah, she's quite a good runner'.
4078 'Right. Do you remember what you had one before that, in
Reply 'No, I have a feeling that on the Tuesday was one of the
sessions that the guys had, either a wind surf or a sailing
lesson down the beach, so I think I'd have gone down there to
sail. Wind conditions were kind of funny, the, the, because it
was kind of, kind of a thermal sort of cycle, so in the morning
it's actually quite quiet and good for beginners because the
wind's not really started to blow and the land heats up and the
wind comes in as things move in, so it was the afternoons that
were really strong enough for what I wanted to do, so I think I
must have been a bit disappointed. But I think the Tuesday and
Thursday were days that they had lessons and I went, I'm fairly
sure that I went down to the beach whilst they went and took out
one of the other boats. The Wednesday, one of the days I went
out with Russell and we just bobbed about on the kayaks because,
and I think that was either a Monday or a Tuesday. When did I go
back into the water, have I missed one. One of the days we were
bobbing about on the water just sort of chatting at lunchtime'.
4078 'How busy was it around the beach''
Reply 'Fairly quiet, yeah'.
00.41.51 4078 'And on all the occasions where you went sailing
on your own or with Russell or running even with Kate, was there
anybody, with hindsight now, that sort of springs to mind that
you noticed hanging around that you wouldn't have expected to
have been there or that you didn't recognise from the holiday''
Reply 'Yeah, I've thought about this a lot and, no, there was
nobody that, erm, there was nobody that seemed to be odd or
taken an unusual interest'.
4078 'And I have no doubt you have thought about it time and
time again, like you said at the beginning, and in all those
times you haven't sort of come to any theories about the staff
at the complex or''
Reply 'No, I mean, there was nobody that gave you a particularly
bad feeling. Erm, I mean, there was one incident where somebody,
and I think Russell mentioned, might have mentioned it, about
somebody that was videoing and doing pictures of kids, and I
remember being there at the time and the video and everything
and was sort of speaking to them, but I don't, you know, I
didn't really know them, I didn't get any particular vibes, they
had children, they had a video camera'.
4078 'And nothing else has sprung to mind at all''
Reply 'I think, erm, no, I mean, we were so fairly, you know,
although we'd spoke to other people and chatted, it was mainly,
it was sort a self-sufficient group, there was such a number of
us, so if we went to play tennis we weren't necessarily, erm,
sort of, erm, taking anybody else on, or sort of, erm, just
mixing with the group, because we had enough people to play with
on our own'.
4078 'And the beach was fairly quiet''
Reply 'The beach was fairly quiet'.
4078 'Can you recall the pool and the Tapas''
Reply 'The pool and the Tapas were fairly quiet'.
4078 'What about in the evenings when you were going back to
check on Grace, do you recall some of the other people around''
Reply 'No, there'd be rarely, rarely anybody about, maybe an
occasional one person. Erm, tut, was he, was it the chap, whose
name I can't remember, he had a child who was willing to be part
of, or was being suggested for the interview, Jeremy, Jeremy or
00.43.49 4078 'Yeah'.
Reply 'Who had a child and I think I'd seen him around because I
think their child didn't sleep particularly well and he may have
been pushing or he might have been collecting from cr'he, but
what day or what time, I don't really remember'.
4078 'How did you come to know Jeremy''
Reply 'It was a couple that we spoke to while we were on, Jeremy
I think I spoke to on the coach, either on the coach or we
already said something, you know, something when we were
checking in, sort of that'd have been four o'clock in the
morning or whenever it was, and there was, so I think I spoke to
him on the coach or on the plane on the way over, definitely on
the coach or on the plane on the way over, and sort of said hi
every now and again, but didn't, erm, you know anything more
than that really'.
4078 'And did you speak to him during the holiday''
Reply 'Yeah, just on odd occasions'.
4078 'Okay. Right. So, I mean, having said that you had
struggled to remember what you did each day, you have done
pretty well really so far, you have remembered, for example,
that Rachael was unwell all day on the Wednesday, so therefore
you had gone for a run with Kate. I am guessing, would that have
been when Grace was asleep or''
Reply 'I think that was lunchtime'.
4078 'Yeah. Do you remember what you did after your run with
Reply 'No, because I'd have been on, I'd have been on Grace duty
I think that afternoon. So given that Rachael was unwell and she
was sort of in and out of bed (inaudible). Erm, but a lot of the
time we ended up, there was sort of like a play area by the pool
with sort of like a plastic, you know, sort of house and little
slides, and we spent most evenings, after the kids, because the
kids ate a little bit earlier, they ate about sort of quarter to
five sometime round there, they'd have their tea, and we'd all
move over to this sort of play area, because, I mean, it was
fantastic, because there was just like little play houses and
things and, you know, sort of lots of grass, so there'd be lots
of sort of, they'd sort of chase each other round, they'd play
on these bits and, you know, we'd chase them, erm, backwards and
forwards, you know, taking it in turns and just sort of stand
around and chat. Some people might play tennis at that point in
sort of part of the social games, because they did, they did
like a sort of mixed, women's night, men's night, social, like
that. So there was definitely times when Rachael was on the
court, because Grace would be going, like sort of seeing them on
the court, she didn't like it, she'd look like at the netting,
going 'Mummy, mummy' and 'Come on, come and play'. Erm, so that
was pretty much the routine for most nights and we may have gone
over and played with that, erm, played with that stuff a little
bit earlier as well'.
00.46.17 4078 'Was it during those sort of times where you got
to know Gerry and Kate a little bit more''
Reply 'Predominantly those, because that's when we saw them
most, I mean, it'd be sort of a good hour. And the awful thing
was that Madeleine always used to say 'Oh come on be a monster,
be a monster, chase me' and, you know, and you think, you know,
there really are, you know, it was all pretend at that point,
but of course, erm, not as it turned out that, you know, the
fact that she said that was, erm. But, you know, it was all, you
know, fun, the children running round and then they'd all jump
on Dave or jump on Gerry, it was all, you know, they got on
great, there was a sort of good range of ages so they had enough
people to play with, yeah, it was great, they loved it, running
4078 'And I will ask this question, because I know it comes into
play later on, so we may as well cover it while we are going
00.47.07 4078 'As you got to know Gerry and Kate how did you
Reply 'Yeah, they're, erm, I mean, they're very similar sort of
people. I mean, they were absolute, they absolutely loved their
kids and there's no question to any of us that they had anything
to do with this. Erm, they were appropriate, friendly, they had
the same, I mean, we're all medics, so you've got that in common
anyway. Erm, but, yeah, I mean, you see them on the cameras on
TV and they're all sort of, they are all sort of very, very sort
of focussed, very, you know, sort of (inaudible) but they know
what they want and they can explain it, they are articulate. I
mean, he's a, sort of an academic sort of medic, so, you know,
it's sort of a competitive field where you compete for grants
and staff and all that sort of thing, so you need to know what
you're doing, you need to be sort of fairly on the ball and
that's just how he is, I mean, it's just, if he's got a project,
he's sort of very focussed and sort of fairly, fairly driven.
Erm, but, absolutely, sort of great parents. I mean, most of my
memory from Italy is of sort of, you know, I think, I think
Madeleine may have had quite a bit of attention when she was
younger. She was mostly in and out of sort of the apartment,
didn't see much of her there. I saw more of Gerry when we were
playing sort of football and things. But, yeah, you know, just a
normal. I mean, he'd done quite a lot of sports, erm, on a
Wednesday night particularly and when we went to the bar after
we spent a lot of time talking about sort of, you know, could it
have been slightly different could I have been a professional
footballer, you know, this is how, I enjoyed it and how far I
got and we talked about sort of what I'd done and there was
quite a lot in common, erm, in common with that. Erm, Kate sort
of initially was much sort of quieter but when you sort of
talked to her she's, erm, sort of just friendly and sort of warm
and just a normal person'.
4078 'And how would you describe Madeleine''
Reply 'Erm, yeah, sweet, lovely, you know, sort of very sort of
outgoing and, erm, you know, enthusiastic, bounds of energy,
sort of memories of her as they're running round the bits when
we sort of chased her, it was always 'I want more. I want more.
Be a monster. Be a monster' and running round, yeah'.
00.49.15 4078 'Sad memories for you all, or mixed memories
probably, I should imagine, bitter sweet''
Reply 'Yeah, erm'.
4078 'And you said the Wednesday you stayed later and you went
for a drink after the meal at the Tapas''
Reply 'Yeah, we might have had one, erm, so about sort of half
an hour or so later that we went back. But the reason, now we
mention it, but I think that was on the Thursday, when we went
to the table, I didn't sit next to Gerry, because we had this
conversation, he said, you know, he'd bored the pants off me
yesterday when we were talking about his sports (inaudible)'.
Reply 'I don't know why I brought that up, I don't know, it
seemed to be sort of part of my thought'.
4078 'On the subject of drinking and how much you had to drink
in the evenings, has obviously been mentioned in the past, so I
will ask the question'.
Reply 'Yeah, somebody said fourteen bottles, I think, oh, tut'.
Reply 'I know and that was each'.
4078 'So how much did you really have to drink, obviously it is
going to be different each night, but, you know, roughly''
Reply 'I think we had, I think we had between four and six
bottles at the most on the table open but not emptied, so I
think we started with either one of each, sort of a white and a
red, or two of each, and then may have had an extra one during
the course, but not, not drunk, you know, maybe two or three
sort of glasses. Erm, it is difficult because, you know, it's
holiday and the sort of the bottles are there and I don't
particularly, I have to be in the sort of right sort of mood to
drink and, you know, it sort of can be a bit cold and it wasn't
always sort of conducive to having, erm, having lots'.
00.50.51 4078 'To what extent, did you feel like you had been
Reply 'No, not at all'.
4078 'Were there any evenings where you felt, oh I feel like
I've had a lot''
4078 'So you always felt relatively sober''
4078 'Is there anything that you can think of, worthy of
mention, up until the Wednesday night before we move onto the
Reply 'Erm, no, my initial thought is there's nothing that's
leapt out that I haven't mentioned before. Erm, I mean, there
was no sort of strange people or anything unusual with the, with
the flat. Some people had, I mean, gardeners came round to trim
the gardens once or twice, or maybe just once a week, I mean,
because we were there for three weeks, maybe they came round
slightly more. Erm, somebody had workmen in maybe during, the
shutter we broke, the shutter, erm, broke for, the outside
shutter by the patio door broke for us on the first day, I think
it went back up into its, so you couldn't actually drop it on
the outside, the shutter by the patio, but we didn't drop that
anyway, erm, until we got in at night, but I think it broke and
it had to be, and I think they did come, yes, they did come and
repair it. But apart from that there wasn't really anybody else
4078 'We will concentrate more on your apartment actually before
we move on to the Thursday'.
4078 'How are you doing, you know, do you need a break or
Reply 'No, I'm fine'.
00.52.34 4078 'So we have got the diagram there of your'.
4078 'Well mainly all of your apartment and Gerry and Kate's
obviously. Up until the Wednesday night, from what you have
already said then, you didn't go into Gerry and Kate's
apartment, well, sorry, you didn't check on Gerry and Kate's
4078 'Had you been into their apartment before''
Reply 'Erm, I don't think so. It's hard to remember now at this
point because I know what it looks like. I mean, we certainly
knew the back where their patio was. And it may have been on the
first day that we actually looked at everybody's apartment,
because we had the smallest, erm, apartment, because we only
needed one bedroom and they needed two, erm, so we may have had
a brief walk through or as far as the kitchen. But I can't say
with any certainty that I'd been in'.
4078 'Okay. Can I just borrow that back from you because there
might be another plan in there'.
Reply 'I mean, that, I can't remember whether that was asked in
any of the original statements, there might be something about
that there and that would, I would recall that better'.
4078 'That is just a plan that somebody has drawn up of the
area. It is marked Exhibit DM2 for anybody that is interested
watching the DVD. You have already described the layout of where
you were in relation to the Tapas'.
Reply 'Right. It's sort of pushed out a little bit. Yeah, that's
4078 'So this would be Gerry and Kate's apartment''
Reply 'On this corner here, round this kind of, kind of wall,
yeah. So their door entrance would be in that sort of corner
there and your access would be up and across the car park so
you'd get onto the pavement and come down and then back into the
Tapas here and then there's a wall here and sort of a footpath
between the lower wall dividing the apartments and sort of a
five foot'ish wall on that side. Erm, I'm not sure about that
building there, that's where they had the tennis place, but
there's just like a little reception just in the actual doorway
00.54.53 4078 'So can you just mark on there for me your route
between the Tapas and your apartment' Did you always take the
Reply 'No, erm, because during the day, if somebody was in the
apartment, erm, we'd go back through the patio doors, we'd just
leave them open, you know, if somebody was in, but at night we
didn't, we always locked it and went round the back. So the day
route, when somebody was in, we're just going to go sort of,
erm, do you want me to put them both on, I'm going to have to
choose a different colour, and so the night route would be'.
4078 'I'm not prepared for that'.
Reply 'Erm, would be, erm, you can't sort of get over that wall,
if that's pavement, then that's down the pavement and you'd go
down there to the, to the Tapas and back and forward and that
would be the checking route'.
4078 'That is fine'.
Reply 'Erm, the day route, you might, you'd sneak back up here
and go through the patio doors'.
4078 'Yeah. It's more the night route I was interested in
because obviously when we come on to talk about the Thursday
evening it is going to be your route and in relation to what
everyone else has said'.
4078 'I am just going to call this now MO1, just because it is
specific to you now that that is the route that you have taken'.
Reply 'Yeah, sure'.
4078 'And we will do an Exhibit label for that as well in due
course, no point wasting the time doing it at the moment. And
then logistically then, when you would go to your apartment to
00.56.22 4078 'You would come through, as you have described''
4078 'And through the roadside door, if you like, rather than
the poolside door, would that be right''
Reply 'Yeah, so you have got those dotty bits there. So our door
is here, these are the shutters on the back of our thing, so
you'd come out through here and you'd come in and you'd go into
the room here. And we had the bed, erm, the bed head was here
and came out into the room and Grace's cot was here'.
4078 'Okay. So Grace was in the cot rather than the bed''
Reply 'Yeah, yeah, she was in'.
4078 'Okay. And this door here, what was the door like''
Reply 'Erm, brown, erm, big, brown and wood, brown and wood
like. There was a lock, erm, it sort of, you know, one of those
you turn twice with the key. And I think, and sort of I think a
round, or was it like a lever handle, I can't remember what the
handle was like, I think you had to turn it to go in and so it
would snip, erm, you couldn't really shut it with the lock on,
but I think if you didn't lock it up here you could then just
open it and shut it, I think you had to actually lock it to, it
wasn't like a Yale thing that, erm, stops you opening it again,
4078 'On the evenings where you and Rachael both went to the
Tapas and you checked on Grace''
4078 'What did you do in relation to securing the apartment, did
Reply 'Erm, these would all be locked'.
Reply 'The shutters, we didn't open all week, because there's
kind of no point. I mean, we went in that bedroom for Grace to
sleep during that day, it needed to be dark and kept it at an
even temperature, there was no point putting it up and down. I
know the, one of the things I said in my statement, when we talk
about the Thursday, was where the two windows were only the one,
and I thought the two were on this bedroom rather than this one
and so, you know, I said, you go through, but there's actually
two more, apparently two on those, they showed me a photograph
of that. So that's something I know that I got mistaken by, I
thought there were two on next door, because I don't think I'd
ever noticed it because I think because we'd never pulled up the
shutters, they were always sort of down, we just didn't
interfere with those'.
00.58.35 4078 'Yeah'.
Reply 'And so the patio doors would be shut and locked, erm, the
outside, erm, shutter wouldn't have been down until we were in
Reply 'Erm, but everything else, there'd had been no windows,
the windows would all be shut and secured'.
4078 'So at this end then the shutters would have been down and
that would have been locked''
4078 'Okay. And you say Grace was in this first bedroom on the
Reply 'Yeah, there's only one bedroom in ours, so we all slept
together, so it was us and Grace was there. Erm, there's just
like a bathroom and toilet, the bath goes along there. Erm, and
there's sort of like a living area with, erm, there was a TV I
think on the table there, a side table, a couch and a couch
4078 'Okay. When obviously you were next to the McCANN's, in
4078 'Did you hear between the apartments''
Reply 'You could hear from the bathrooms, erm, you'd be able to
sort of hear, you'd be able to sort of hear talking and,
particularly at bath time. They'd go slightly earlier than Grace
just because, erm, I mean, sort of I'm a bit disorganised about
getting Grace, you know, to bed, erm, so they'd already be in
bed slightly earlier, but you'd often hear them in the bathroom.
And I know that Grace had, erm, some fairly loose nappies that
needed putting in the bath to clean off, which she hated, so she
used to cry for that first thing in the morning and I think
they'd heard her, erm, erm, heard her in the morning. But you'd
often hear them talking in the evening'.
01.00.17 4078 'You see, the reason I am asking that is, I think
it was the Sunday night that you stayed in the apartment, wasn't
Reply 'It was on Sunday night, yeah'.
4078 'Did you hear any of the children during that Sunday
evening that you are conscious of''
Reply 'No, no, I mean, at no time we didn't hear, I mean, sort
of the big picture about whether, you know, they were being sort
of, you know, well looked after, I didn't hear any sort of
screaming, shouting or, you know, anything sort of untoward'.
4078 'You have and you had no concerns about''
Reply 'No, either child care or parenting or them not being
happy. I mean, you know, you do a bit of child psychology when
you do and you know what, you know, what kids should do. If you
leave them in a room and you've got, and they're linked, well
linked to their parent, they look anxious, then they leave the
room and they're happy when you come back, they're, you know, it
was all appropriate sort of, you know, there was nothing odd
about the way they interact with their children, they didn't do
anything that would made me think, you know, that was my'.
4078 'Okay. Right. The Tuesday evening would have been the
evening that Rachael stayed in the apartment''
Reply 'Rachael was sort of, erm, became unwell the Tuesday
evening, erm, and she stayed in the apartment, yeah'.
01.01.34 4078 'The reason I am specific about that is because
there is a statement from somebody who says they hear children
crying and I think it is the Tuesday evening, I will stand
corrected if I am wrong, it was either the Tuesday or the
4078 'So I must make a point of mentioning it to the other
Officer to specifically ask Rachael. I am sure she will recall
and say if there was anything relevant but we must ask'.
Reply 'Yeah, I think, for some reason, she's, I don't know
whether that's come up before, maybe just asked her
non-specifically did she hear anything, but I didn't on the
Sunday night and, you know, she'd have said if, and she's never
said that she heard anything'.
4078 'Yeah. Okay. I will just make a note to myself though just
to remind me because, as I say, whilst you are here it is best
to ask all the questions'.
4078 'Okay. So that takes us really up until the Wednesday
night. And the Thursday is going to be you actually go through
that sort of blow by blow as far as we can'.
4078 'So it may be a good time for a break if that is okay with
Reply 'That's fine, erm, either, what you need to do'.
4078 'I think we have been, what time did we start'.
Reply 'About an hour I think we've done'.
4078 'Okay. Well we will just have a short break and I will get
you a tea or coffee''
Reply 'Erm, I'd love coffee'.
Reply 'Yeah, please. But I can make it next door if you like''
01.02.46 4078 'No, well if you pop next door I will bring it
down to you in a minute'.
Reply 'Alright. Thanks'.
4078 'And then when we come back in to do the next interview we
can concentrate on the Thursday without having a break during
4078 'Because it is nice if it, you know, if it is flowing just
to carry on'.
Reply 'Yeah, alright. Thanks'.
SM M OLDFIELD
00.00.03 4078 'Okay. It says the time is eleven fifty-four
and we are still on Wednesday the ninth of April two thousand
and eight. I am DC Sophie FERGUSON from Leicestershire Major
Crime Unit. I know we have already had an interview but just
introduce yourself again please''
Reply 'I'm Matthew David OLDFIELD'.
4078 'Thank you'.
Reply 'Do you need my address or anything''
4078 'No, I think we will go with the first one for that. We
have been speaking Matthew already about, you know, the first
part of your holiday in Praia da Luz last May''
4078 'And obviously in relation to Madeleine McCANN going
missing. And we have already covered between Saturday and
Wednesday night. And then we got to the point where I kind of
enforced a break on you. And we can now concentrate on Thursday,
if you are okay with that''
Reply 'Yeah, that's fine'.
4078 'Again, like I said at the beginning of the last interview,
it is just as you remember it, you know, if you remember things
differently to how, you know, things are written in statements
and that becomes apparent later on, don't worry about that, it
is as you can remember it now. You haven't looked at your
statements this morning''.
00.01.02 4078 'And you know that you are able to do that if you
want to. But we have, well you have decided, and I am in
agreement with that, that you are going to do this without
looking at your statement first''
Reply 'Yeah, I mean, I think the Thursday is the day we've
thought about the most and that certain bits of it I don't
remember particularly well but the important bits I think I do
and I think there are bits that, erm, that from my previous
statement, I don't think there is anything different in there
but, erm, I do think and I'm happy with the statement first'.
4078 'You might be surprised but this isn't a test'.
4078 'This is just to recall'.
Reply 'I know it feels like an exam of course but'.
4078 'Does it''
Reply 'Yeah, a bit'.
4078 'Oh sorry, well I will try not to make it feel like an
Reply 'No, you know, it's a test of memory'.
4078 'Yeah, it is a test of memory obviously'.
4078 'But we will move through it and we will do it as we have
done the rest of it, if you can tell me as much as you can
remember and then sort of we will go through the finer details
Reply 'Yeah, yeah, I mean, as I say, Thursday I think since I've
thought about it and it's much clearer. The Thursday morning we,
Rachael, Grace and I went to the Millennium Restaurant for
breakfast, well as we did each morning, as I've already said.
There wasn't anybody else there, we had breakfast on our own. I
don't mean there was nobody else at any other table, but it was
fairly quiet, but none of the other group were there initially.
Now we were always fairly early because Grace was always awake
earliest, erm, awake at, I don't know'.
00.02.26 4078 'Lucky you!'
Reply 'Yeah, always by half six or six o'clock and she'd be sort
of sparky and awake and wanting to get up and so we'd sort of
trudge on and we might even be banging on the doors waiting for
them to open up, we'd be fairly early to breakfast. And so that
morning we'd eaten breakfast and we were ready to leave before
anybody else arrived and we were actually out of the door when
Russell, with his two children, but not Jane, arrived. Erm, so
because I don't, I didn't really enjoy dropping Grace off at
Nursery because she got a bit upset, Rachael volunteered to go
and do it. So she went back, erm, she went back first and I
stayed with Russell and went back in for breakfast, because I
was going to go down to the beach and sail because they had,
erm, either a sailing or a wind surfing, I think they had
sailing that morning, so I was going to go down and go sailing,
that's what we'd agreed that I would do. Erm, so we went back in
and he had breakfast and I think Jane had tennis,
I think maybe they were, I think they had a lesson, did they
have a lesson together Rachael and Jane, erm, they wouldn't have
done because we'd have had lessons as a couple. And so I went
back in with Russell and Ella and Evie and we had breakfast and
then we walked back together and we, Russell had to take Ella
and Evie, erm, so he dropped Ella off at the, at her Nursery
area which was separate from where we drop Grace, and then he
went on and I turned left and went down to the beach and went
sailing for that morning. Erm, from then,
I don't remember,
I assume we made our way back from the beach, picked Grace up
from Nursery and, erm, had lunch, but I can't remember where we
had lunch that day, it may have been at Dave and Fiona's by that
point in the week. Erm, and then in the aft, when Grace went
down to sleep Rachael went to play tennis with Jane, I'm fairly
sure about that. And then I went down to the beach with Russell
and we actually went sailing for part of the evening, erm, for
part of the afternoon, so it was sort of relatively late in the,
erm, because Grace would sleep sort of half twelve, one o'clock
and she'd sleep for sort of a couple of hours and Rachael would
be out to play tennis and then came back, erm, so we went off
from then. And I'd been, we'd been down to the beach a couple of
times before but we'd end up going canoeing and I'd always
wanted to go sailing because the boats that I'd really like to
sale are the big catamarans, they've got some (inaudible) cats,
which are, erm, sort of sixteen foot long, but you ideally need,
certainly in a breeze, you need two people to weight them down
or they tend to turn over, so I'd always been trying to get him
out on one of those and he sort of agreed to, erm, and he didn't
have confidence in my sailing abilities, but, erm, he agreed to
come on one of those and there was enough wind that lunchtime to
actually do it.
And so we went back down to the beach and took one of the cats
out and we were out a bit longer than expected because part of
the boat's strapping fell off and I fell off the back and so we
got sort of stranded in the water and he didn't really know how
to sail but managed to bring the boat round and I was sort of
like a mile from shore thinking I'm going to have to swim all
the way back or he's going to run me down with the boat, but he
actually did really well and actually managed to pick me up on
the back of the boat. Erm, by the time we'd got back in the,
erm, the rest of the families were down on the beach, apart from
Gerry and Kate and their kids, so it was Dave and Fiona and Lily
and Scarlet, erm, and Jane and Ella and Evie and they were
playing on the beach. And so we sort of put the boat away, got
changed and came over to them, all sort of full of our
experiences of falling over and Russell saving my life, as he,
you know, he told you yesterday'.
00.06.02 4078 'I bet he loved that'.
Reply 'Yeah, he did like that. And it wasn't my fault I fell off
the back. Erm, I think he was steering. Well, anyway, so we came
back. And then we went from there and we actually had,
unusually, we had, erm, actually had tea with the kids down at
the restaurant, which I think is call the Paradiso or Para,
Paradiso, sort of a beachfront restaurant, it's on the sand and
you access by sort of boardwalks, and we actually had, erm, tea
with the kids and ice cream. Now we was, there was a men's
social tennis that night, but because we'd had sort of quite a,
it was quite sort (inaudible), we'd actually been off sort of
enjoying ourselves and sailing, erm, it got sort of quite late
and we didn't think we were actually going to be able to go, so
we actually had a beer at the restaurant while the kids were,
you know, they were eating, and it was past six before the girls
said, well they've moved this forward for us and we're not
turning up to the social tennis so you guys should go. So we
finished and set off, probably about twenty past six, sometime
around there, because it was after when we'd got them to move,
we were already late, so I think if we'd said, if they'd move it
to six thirty and we're setting off at six twenty, I would have
been happy that we could have made it there in time, but we'd
already gone past the time when I thought we won't be able to go
because we were already so late'.
00.07.20 4078 'Was that you, David and'.
Reply 'It was men's social. Erm, so we went back up, erm, back
to, well I went back to the apartment, got the tennis gear and
back onto the courts or back to the courts area, erm, and the
other guys went to get their stuff. Erm, and I think Dave said
that he'd been to the apartment, but I don't know that for
definite, that's just something I think has come out, I didn't
know anything about that. So we went, got our stuff and came
back to the courts, which were already in play, because the
social had already started. And Gerry was down playing on a
court, I think there was only three of them, I think the, erm,
the coach, whose name I can't remember, the tennis coach, the
blonde haired bloke, erm, was playing to make up the numbers.
And so we waited and watched for a little while, so we didn't
get on court until, phew, sometime closer to seven, so maybe
sort of quarter to or twenty to or ten to seven we went down to
the court. And we were hoping that Gerry would actually stay and
make up the four, because everybody, there was one court that
was full of four and then there was a three over he, but he,
erm, sort of went back to, erm, to sort of help with, you know,
Kate and the kids and didn't stay to sort of play with us and
there was just the three of us and I think the coach stayed and
played to make up the four initially, but didn't want to stay,
so he didn't stay the whole time. But we played then for, I
think the best part of an hour, erm, before going back to the
apartment. And that would have made me slightly late for putting
Grace to bed, so I was sort of, oh I better go, I better finish
now because, you know, Rachael will be doing it all on her own'.
00.08.51 4078 'You would be in trouble''
Reply 'Well, yeah, and also because, you know, I like doing the,
I usually do bath time and Rachael would do the story, so I was
quite keen to get back anyway. So half seven we'd normally be
trying to get her down to, but she was, erm, awake when I got
back so we did the story, I mean, she'd had a bath and been out,
but it was just sort of the down time before getting into bed,
I'm pretty certain she was still awake at that point when we
came back, so we put her down and read stories, erm, she goes
down fairly easy, she goes into our bedroom and we take all the
stuff we need out of the room before we, erm, sort of put her
down and then close the door so we don't have to go back in,
although you often could if you crept in without waking her up.
Erm, so that would be sometime between, normally we'd be there
at half seven and sort of have an hour to get down, to get, to
get ready to go out, so it'd be sort of closer to eight this
time. Erm, we'd get showered and get changed and then, because
we can see the Tapas from our patio doors, we can see when
anybody else goes down there, because the original table was
booked for eight thirty, erm, we were a bit later that night and
it was about quarter to and we saw Gerry and Kate down there and
so we locked up, went round and joined them at the table.
Now I don't recall seeing Jane and Russell there, but I'm told
that Jane was there at the time as well. But we got there and
sort of chatted and then Russell arrived. And we were all there,
apart from Dave and Fiona and Fiona's mother, Dianne, at sort of
five to nine, and they were, they were always sort of fairly
relaxed and sort of a bit late and disorganised, I mean, that's
a bit unfair, but they were certainly, they'd always be pretty
much the last to arrive, they were always late for most things
and you could see the light on in their apartment, you could see
it from the Tapas and you could see them moving around so you
knew they were still there. And so I decided that I'd go back
and short of chivvy them along, because I felt a bit bad that,
you know, there's just us in this restaurant, as there had been
most of the week, there weren't often, erm, on one night they
had a quiz and there were a few sort of more tables, erm, around
that were occupied, but most of the time it was just us and I
felt a bit bad that we said we'd be there at half eight and, you
know, it was getting later and later and it was now coming to
nine and we hadn't even got the table there to get ready to
order, but by this time in the week we knew what we were going
so I told Rach, you know, I'll have whatever it was, I think it
was, erm, probably sardines because, you know, they were pretty
good, erm, so I put my order in for her to order if the waiter
came back and went to try and sort of chivvy them along. But as
I was leaving the Tapas area, you know, and their light going
off and knowing that they were coming down and on their way, and
on my way up, about at that top corner before you turn left to
get round the back, as you go up the top of the hill, we sort of
passed on the way down and they were on their way to the
restaurant, but it seemed a bit silly not to go ahead and just
sort of check on Grace, even though we'd only been down there
about fifteen minutes, but that was sort of a convenient time to
go and do it. So I went and listened, I went, I found the time,
because we'd only just been in there about fifteen minutes ago,
and I just listened outside her shutters, so I just passed along
that wall that goes to the two, sort of to the McCANN's
apartment, so I listened outside our shutters and went along to
their shutter and had a listen out there, not because I'd been
asked to, but, or it's not the sort of thing you think about,
it's just kind of, erm,'.
00.12.06 4078 'You thought you might as well''
Reply 'So I thought I might as well and I can report back and
they can be, you know, be reassured that everything was okay.
And we talked a lot in the previous interviews about what state
the shutters were in, whether they were, and they were all
definitely down, there's three shutters, you know, there's, you
know, two, and they're all at the same level, there was no, I
would have noticed if they were, if one was up and the rest were
down, it would have looked odd'.
4078 'What was the lighting like around that area at that time''
Reply 'It's getting dusk, erm, by that time, but not completely
dark, erm, it was not as dark as it got later on (inaudible)
00.12.40 4078 'And you said that, obviously you spoke about some
4078 'And you are confident the shutter was down''
Reply 'Yeah, absolutely'.
4078 'Is that because you can remember seeing it down or because
you just think you would have noticed if it hadn't have been
Reply 'I'm pretty sure I saw them down'.
4078 'And when you listened outside the room where Madeleine
4078 'How close would you have got to the shutter''
Reply 'I'd have been about a foot away, because, I mean, the
shutters, you're not sure how well you're going to hear
something through, so my ear wouldn't have been pressed against
the two, but, erm, it would have been sort of about a foot or
4078 'And how long would you have listened for outside that
Reply 'Erm, five or ten seconds'.
4078 'It is long enough, presumably, for you to have stood
still, so that you weren't making a noise yourself''
Reply 'Yeah, you'd have been fairly comfortable that you'd have
heard somebody if they were sort of crying or sort of
4078 'And did you notice anybody else around''
Reply 'No, there was nobody, you don't, you can't see the
doorway from that point because it's round a, you have to go
round the corner, so not into that, I didn't go into that area,
but I didn't hear anything, I didn't see anything'.
4078 'If somebody had have passed by on the street would you
have seen them from where you were by Madeleine's window' Sorry,
having not been there, it is hard for me to visualise'.
Reply 'No, because sort of, erm, more specifically the wall that
comes from the, there's sort of a drop, so it's at a different
level the car park, you have to go down steps to get to, you go
down steps to get from the car park to the apartment complex, so
when you go down to the apartment and you go back along the
wall, this wall must be, erm, I can't remember exactly, but it
must be a good five foot'.
00.14.12 4078 'Right'.
Reply 'Maybe, and I can't be exactly sure, but it's a decent
height, that wall, because you've got the, the ground is lower
on that side, although from the car park side it's probably only
about at that side and that side is down, it's quite sort of,
and then there's sort of some more sort of shrubbery trees, I
don't know, unless you were specifically looking down the road,
you probably wouldn't see. I mean, I don't, I wasn't aware of
any movement, there was nothing moving, I don't recall seeing
4078 'And no doubt you have replayed this in your own mind
several times. You have stood and listened specifically to see
if you can hear any noises from within the apartment''
4078 'Have you been aware of any other noises from outside the
apartment when you listened on that occasion''
Reply 'No, I mean, there would have been, I mean, there was
nothing that made me, you know, there could have been somebody
around the corner, it's always possible, because I didn't look
round there and you wouldn't see it, but there was nothing that,
you know, that I seen, there was nobody, no. I mean, the sure
answer to that is, no, there was nothing'.
4078 'And would it have been usually to have heard traffic noise
at that time of the evening''
Reply 'No, not really, you might get the occasional car come
into that car park, but mostly the car park you wouldn't have
seen cars in, erm, and it's not really through road, when you
look at the map it's sort of like on a 'U', so you've got the, a
more main road at the top and one main T-junction to go down at
the far end of the two apartment complexes, you didn't really
get much through traffic, even going down the hill to the
Supermarket there wasn't, there was always car sparked down
there, so they must move at some point and there were lots of
apartments, people must pass through, but there was never, it
was pretty deserted'.
00.15.46 4078 'And you can't remember anything specific''
4078 'Obviously you wouldn't have been listening for that or
paying much attention to that at that point because it wasn't
relevant then at that time''
Reply 'Yeah. Well I think that, you know, if you'd seen
something unusual I'd have remembered it, I mean, going through,
what we will talk about later, you kind of think, well, you
know, if things didn't quite right, it's the kind of frame of
mind you're in, you're looking for sort of an innocent
explanation and, you know, if you have one then you'd sort of
just sort of passed on, but you'd certainly remember thinking,
you know, that was odd in hindsight, and I think I'd have
remember that now'.
Reply 'But at the time I'd have remembered it if it'd been
something that triggered at that point'.
4078 'And I know when, I think I have met you on two occasions
previously, and one of those was specifically to come and ask
you if there was anything that you have thought about since the
holiday that was odd''
4078 'And I know you racked your brains at the time and you
couldn't think of anything''
00.16.41 4078 'Okay. So what sort of time was it when you did
that listening check outside Madeleine's room''
Reply 'Well this would have been, I'd have set off about five to
nine or just before nine, and so that round trip would have
taken me three or four minutes maybe, because on this occasion I
didn't go into our apartment, so it was just walk up, sort of
ten or twenty seconds outside the two shutters and then back
4078 'Do you remember what the weather was like then''
Reply 'Erm, it wasn't, erm, not specifically, it was a better
day on the Thursday than it was on the Wednesday, because we had
rain, and I think it was sort of warmer and bit more clear, I
don't remember the, it may have been a bit cloudy, but I don't
Reply 'I think the moon was out later on so, I had the
impression that the moon was out later on, so it may not have
been, it may have been more clear'.
4078 'And you said it was just turning dark''
4078 'Do you remember or can you recall what the street lighting
was like around there''
Reply 'There's a street light, and this is all, erm, I couldn't
sort of guarantee this, but my impression is that there was, the
street lights were sort of very orangey, erm, sort of fairly
orangey light, I think there was one at the top corner and maybe
one about halfway up on the right as you came up from the Tapas
Restaurant and possibly one on that, on that back bit behind the
car park, someway further along'.
4078 'I am just trying to illustrate, you said you were fairly
confident that the shutter was shut'.
00.18.22 4078 'But it was turning dark. I am just trying to sort
of illustrate whether there was any light on that area, if you
would have been able to see if it was''
Reply 'Well it wasn't murky, I mean, you were close to the
shutters, they're sort of white and they're lined, I think it'd
be fairly obvious if there was a dark gap along the bottom, if
they'd been raised particularly'.
4078 'Okay. So take me through from there then, what happened
Reply 'So, erm, back to the table, erm, we have, oh, back to the
table, Gerry got up to go and, to go and check on his kids, I
mean, and I'd come back and said, you know, I didn't hear any
noise when I listened outside your room, so I thought it was a
little bit odd that, you know, not kind of a wounded pride that
he sort of didn't trust me, but, erm, I just thought, oh, you
know, I've just checked you don't really need to check and sort
of, you know, sort of go back, but, erm, he sort of got up and
went back to check on, erm, on his kids. But, you know, you
don't, you know, we're all sort of responsible for our own
children and you wouldn't sort of say, you know, you don't need
to do that, I just sort of felt, oh I've listened, you don't
need to do that because I've kind of just done it, but I hadn't
gone into the apartment, so, erm'.
4078 'Did you actually say that or you just thought that to
Reply 'Yeah, I thought that, you know, I'd said that everything
was sort of quiet, I listened outside the shutters, but, you
know, they went back up, erm, and said he was going to check.
Erm, I know that Jane went, erm, went up, and I think that's
because Evie had been, I think Evie had not been well that
morning and I think that's, I can't remember whether she had any
breakfast, but I don't think she'd been particularly well that
morning, or she was sort of a bit off colour not sort of being
particularly unwell, but maybe, I think the kids hadn't settle
particularly well and that's why they, erm, Russell and Jane had
come separately in the evening, and so she went back, erm, to
check on, presumably to check on, to check on her kids and then
came back and we, erm, had starters by then'.
4078 'Was that the first time that you had taken it upon
yourself to check on somebody else's child''
Reply 'Yeah, I'd not done it before, it was only because, you
know, I was there and I was, and it may not have happened if I'd
actually gone in and checked on Grace through the room, you
know, I might not have just been next to their shutter in terms
of to actually have a listen, you know, I was just there, it was
only like four steps further. But, no, I didn't, even though we
now knew each other for the week and I felt a bit more
comfortable about their kids knowing me, as I said before, erm,
I wouldn't normally sort of impose that sort of check on
somebody else unless they'd, erm, unless they'd suggested it.
It'd be almost like a step, not a step too far, but, erm, it's
not really our place to, you know, to do that'.
00.21.10 4078 'Okay. So Gerry has gone off almost straight away
after you got back''
4078 'And then Jane followed him''
Reply 'Yeah. Now I don't remember that particularly well, I
mean, I know from what discussion, it may be in my statement
from months ago remembering better, but it wasn't unusual for
people to be leaving the table to sort of check, so it doesn't
stand out particularly in my mind. But I remember Gerry
specifically going because I thought, well I've just checked
(inaudible) and then, you know, well I hadn't been in so I
couldn't really check and, you know, they're his kids, it was
quite right that, if that's what he wants. But I don't
particularly remember Jane doing that, but I might have done at
the time, it's just it's now sort of faded because it didn't see
4078 'Okay. And go on from there then''
Reply 'So we'd have had starters, erm, now, and then, because
there was a natural break between starters and main, that's when
we'd normally go and do the sort of next check and sort of lull
in conversation or whatever. And I think the time that I
originally said I did it, and I can't remember what time I
estimated from the statement, but I think I sort of based it on
the fact that I'm a fairly fast eater and I knew what I wanted
and so it would have been ordered and I'd have sort of cleared
away within sort of ten or fifteen minutes, but it may well have
been slightly later than my original statement, because these
two had, erm, you know, as I said, they went off. So these two
went off, sorry, Gerry and Jane went off, did their checks, you
know, I wouldn't have gone, you know, while everybody else was
still eating, and I went up the second check with Russell, so
he's a pretty slow eater, so it may well have been sort of
closer to sort of twenty past, twenty-five past nine, sometime
round there before we did the next check'.
00.23.05 4078 'Okay'.
Reply 'Erm, so I went to check on Grace and I stood up and
Russell stood up and said he was going to go and check as well
and Kate stood up and I said, you know, do you want us to go and
check on, erm, do you want me to go and check on your kids, erm,
and she said yes. And I think I offered at that point just
because we had been together all week and we had similar
routines and it just kind of seemed like a nice thing to do that
would save her a journey back up and, you know, it may or it may
not have been different. But, erm, I said that and she said yeah
fine and she said that the patio door was open and go in through
there. And there was me and Russell as well, so, erm, you know,
it seemed, at the time, a very reasonable thing to do, even
though it was the first time that we'd certainly done it. Also,
having somebody else there with me, it sort of felt sort of
more, more sort of natural and normal. So we went out and we
debated about whether we'd go in first or go in later, but
Russell wanted to get back because Evie had been a little bit
unsettled and so we went back first and he went in and I went in
to check on Grace and actually went in through the door,
unlocked the door, looked in, into her room, all fine, came back
out, shut the door, erm, went over to his apartment and he said
that Evie had been sick so he was staying back with her. So I
went back and did the check on five 'A', on Madeleine and the
kids, erm, and went back through the patio entrance, so through
the gate, through the patio doors, erm, there was, it was light
enough to see through the apartment and there sort of a little
table light on the right at the end of the sofa and when you
walk into the room, you could see straight into it, because the
door was open. Erm, I've spent a lot of time debating how far
the door was open, from previous questioning, and, you know, it
wasn't flat back against the wall, because that would have
looked odd, it was just sort of halfway open, so it seemed
slightly unusual that it should be so wide open, because you
could see straight into the middle of the room from the angle
that you approach it, because the, you've got sofas here and
you've got a bookcase here and you have to come out, you've got
sort of the wall of the bedroom and then it goes back where the
bathroom is and then comes out again, so you've got to come out
round this wall to sort of, not out round this wall, but you
come in and the doorway is sort of recessed, so you can see
pretty much straight into the room from the doorway back or
certainly as soon as you get past that final wall. So it seemed
odd to have that door open, it's certainly not something that,
you know, Grace has it completely pitch black, because it seems
to me that she sleeps a bit longer, erm, but some people do
leave the door open and I know Russell and Jane, for Ella, and
Lily subsequent, also has the door slightly open, you know, they
have light and they prefer that, but we've never done that with
Grace, so it seemed a little bit odd, but not without the realm
of possibility. So I approached the room but I didn't actually
go in because you could see the twins in the cots and one of
the, you could see the twins in the cots because they're in
with, sort of the cots were in the middle of the room with sort
of a gap of about sort of maybe a foot between the two, the cots
had sort of got that fabric end and sort of a mesh side, so you
could see the sides and you could see them, erm, see them
breathing and there were two there and it was all completely
quiet. And the other things you could see in the room, there was
a, there was another bed at the back underneath the window at
the far side and you could see the end of the bed, another bed
here. And because I was looking for, you know, well people say,
well why didn't you go in the room, why didn't you check on
Madeleine, you were, you said you'd go and check, but it was
just that, we were just satisfying ourselves that nobody was
upset and awake and crying, we didn't expect that if I checked
each three beds somebody, it just wasn't sort of something that
you thought about, you just thought, you know, is somebody, you
know, upset, do they want their mum or something, you can say,
you know, somebody might have vomited and you wouldn't know
about it, but there was, you know, nobody was awake, you
thought, if something, just one, it'd be, it'd sort of feel a
bit odd, you know, from the draughts, you know, when Kate went
in something about the door shutting, there was, I presume, a
through draught. So I just sort of went towards the doorway, I
didn't step over the threshold, I didn't see Madeleine and I
didn't check, I turned round and came back out, said all was
quiet when I got back to the table and then we went on with
food. Now the room was, we talked also in the interviews about
how light the room was and whether I could see the shutters, and
I can't see the shutters because thee curtains were shut and,
they're similar curtains to the ones you've got in there, and
you just get an impression of just like green and yellow, but
they were closed, they weren't sort of blowing about, because
I'm sure I'd have noticed if there was sort of movement like
that. But the room seemed light, and we spent a lot of time
talking about this, whether it could be light coming in from the
street outside, but there was a light behind us in the room and
for some reason I thought, I got the impression of light coming
through the doorway from behind me, which his why I said that I
thought perhaps the moon was out, erm, but there as no sort of,
you know, it's a questions of whether, there was no sort of
slats of light coming through the back that particularly caught
my eye. So I didn't specifically see the shutters and I couldn't
say that they were definitely open, but certainly the curtains
were shut and everything was quiet'.
00.29.11 4078 'So you weren't, just to clarify what you have
said, you weren't conscious of any draught''
4078 'The curtains were drawn and weren't blowing around''
4078 'You weren't conscious of light coming through that window
but the room was light enough for you to see into it''
Reply 'Yeah. I mean, the difficult thing about that is, when we
talked about it afterwards, I agonised for whether it seemed as
though there was light coming through the room. And I have to
say my answer then was probably more accurate, in that, the room
was lighter than I expected but I definitely didn't see the
shutters up, the curtains were definitely not disturbed and the
shutters would have had to have been completely up, I presume,
not to get that sort of, because they were shutters that went
solid but when you lifted them they had gaps of light, and I
wasn't aware of that and it may well be that the light was just
the source from behind'.
00.29.03 4078 'Obviously you have had cause to sort of reflect
on that, that moment''
4078 'A lot''
4078 'At the time when you were there, before you had reason to
reflect on it, at the time you just said to me that the room was
lighter than you expected, did that go through your mind at the
Reply 'Yeah, erm, it just seemed, it just seemed odd, because,
you know, it's really difficult, I can't explain why it was odd
and I didn't do anything about it, and it's something I've
thought about over and over again, you know, surely that just
seemed odd and so it was worth you looking round and going a bit
further, and I can't explain why I didn't do it'.
4078 'Why did it seem odd''
Reply 'Because I sort of see them dealing, they seemed to have
dealt with Sean and Amelie and Madeleine pretty much the way we
deal with Grace, so they were sort of very consistent with
bedtime and rooms, I would imagine, would be kept sort of fairly
dark, they seemed to have come from the same sort of parenting
school that we did, and so, erm, it seemed a little bit more
unusual that it should be, the door should be open so much and
the light, because they were always, the kids were always sort
of really confident and they were the least misbehaved, well not
misbehaved, they were the least upset when they dropped them off
at Nursery, at cr'he, you know, it was all really good and it
was all sort of, they were sort of very good at, erm, you know,
if they did something wrong, they said no and sort of explaining
it properly and why, you know, why it was naughty to do that
sort of thing, it was all sort of very appropriate and almost by
the book, and it seemed a bit sort of casual to sort of like
leave the door open, but then they had sort of an older
daughter, so you know, and older children might get, you know,
nightmares, so it seemed as though there might be a reasonable
explanation, but although I thought it was odd at the time, I
didn't say, you know, do you normally leave your door or
anything like that'.
00.30.42 4078 'You just put it down to the fact that, well you
were a bit surprised that is how they had left it, but that must
be how they are used to doing it''
Reply 'Yeah, and I just don't know why it didn't trigger enough
of a thought in my mind to say, you know, but I think it's just
because you are going expecting that the worst that was going to
happen was that somebody would be upset or out of bed or, you
know, or sort of crying'.
4078 'And, like you have said, you know, we all do things
differently, don't we, in something like that''
Reply 'You know (inaudible) stuff and you think, you know, oh
it's silly that they didn't notice that or, you know, it was
obvious that, but I think it's your sort of frame of mind that
you're set in'.
4078 'Yeah, and with hindsight it is easy to question things
that you had no cause to question''
Reply 'Yeah, because normally we'd think we're fairly observant
because, I mean, we do medicine, so we sort of pick up a lot
clues from people that we talk to and, you know, and how they
might feeling or what they might not be saying and so you'd
expect to trust that sort of, that sort of instinct, but that,
for whatever reason, just didn't'.
4078 'And how do you feel about that''
Reply 'Erm, I mean, I think it's harder for Jane in a lot of
ways than it is for me, but I think we're in slightly similar
positions, in that, she thinks, well, you know'.
4078 'What if''
Reply 'What if I'd done that and the only sort of comfort I get
is that, you know, what if I'd seen him or well maybe if we just
sort of found out half an hour earlier, but maybe that would
have been enough lead time for things to happen faster and for
somebody to call to be here, but I think it's easier for me to
try and rationalise it and not think about it quite so forcibly
as it is for Jane'.
00.32.25 4078 'How long were you actually in the apartment for
Reply 'One or two minutes maybe. I remember looking, they've
got, all the rooms had sort of a book supply and so, because we
were spending all this down time at lunchtime looking, you know,
doing a bit of reading or maybe sunbathing, but some reading, so
I sort of remember sort of looking along their bookshelf as I
walked through to see if there was anything that I could sort of
take to read for the next couple of days, erm, so it might have
been, you know, a minute or two'.
4078 'And you said when you went in you went in through the
4078 'Or the poolside door''
4078 'How did you know to go through there''
Reply 'Well Kate said that that one was open'.
4078 'And when did she say that''
Reply 'When I offered to go and, erm, go and look'.
Reply 'Because I said do you want me to check the kids and she
said yeah the patio door is open'.
Reply 'I mean, it was closed, it wasn't sort of open'.
4078 'And I am assuming it is a slide open door, is that
00.33.23 4078 'So you slid the door open''
4078 'And you have walked through the apartment and you said
there was a light on''
4078 'A lamp, sorry, a table lamp''
Reply 'Yeah, I think sort of, there was like a little sort of
round sort of table like this and then, erm, sort of a small
4078 'So, as you go though there, whereabouts would the lamp
Reply 'So you come in, the steps would bring you up to this end
of the patio, oh sorry, that's the side street so it comes up to
this bit and you go in through (inaudible), erm, I'm not sure
which one of those, I think it was this left one here and
there's sort of like, erm, a sort of a book shelf here'.
4078 'Is that the one that you looked at to see what books''
Reply 'Yeah, and there was, I think there was a sofa here and a
sofa here, it's either one of those two corners, it was a vague
memory of it, that there was like a sort of little side light, a
sort of reading light that was on'.
Reply 'Erm, then as you approach this, because of this wall
here, you approach the room pretty much, you had to go in from
that angle, so you get a clear view right into the middle of the
room. And one of the things that completely floored me in the,
in the interview, the second interview there, they showed me a
picture and they showed a picture of the two cots, you know,
there's wardrobes along this side, slap bang on the right here,
and they said, well how can you see it, I think maybe it was an
aguish thing at the time, but I couldn't quite get at what they
were, what they were really asking me, I mean, how, because they
showed me this picture and you kind of accept it as this is the
real situation and it took a while to, well, no, actually, the
actual, the original Police Force actually moved them when they
cleared the room, they moved them out the way, but, you know, I
presume it was just a sort of, a sort of technique within the
questioning to sort of make you unsettled, but it was sort of
quite unsettling, along with this picture of where the shutters
are. But, erm, you know, you wouldn't, the cots were in the
middle of the room and of course, you know, there's no way you'd
put them at the side, you know, to put your children in and be
able to walk round and get them from both sides. But you walk
from here and I probably got to about here, erm, you know, to
00.35.30 4078 'So you didn't cross the threshold''
4078 'And you say the cots were in the middle of the room''
4078 'What angles were they at''
Reply 'Erm, you could definitely see, see the sides, so they're
either along, I think because of the angle that you approach it,
I think they were just, you know, in the line with the long axis
of the room, but there was a gap between the two and the sides
are mesh, erm'.
Reply 'Yeah (inaudible)'.
4078 'So you saw the sides. Do you remember which way the
children were facing in the cots''
Reply 'No, it was just, you could just see the shape and bits of
Reply 'I mean, I, for some reason I imagine that the children's
heads were towards the, towards the window, but I don't know
whether that's just because I assume that's the way I would put
00.36.22 4078 'Yeah'.
Reply 'Because I've seen it. I don't think I could see that
much, the view'.
4078 'You can't remember''
Reply 'You could see the shapes and you could see they were
breathing, you'd stop and look and you could see they were sort
of breathing, but in terms of sort of features and standing over
and seeing where their heads were, and I couldn't say whether it
was Sean or Amelie that was closest, it was just sort of, erm,
sort of children in cots'.
4078 'The door, it opens the way it is shown on this diagram,
Reply 'Yes, it opens to, back onto that wall'.
4078 'But you didn't touch the door''
4078 'You didn't need to because it was already open''
Reply 'It was already open. I mean, it must have been, it must
have been sort of at that sort of angle, so it's just over
4078 'Yeah, so it is slightly over half open''
4078 'Okay. What else could you see within the room''
Reply 'Erm, there was a bed on the far side underneath the
window, erm, and you could see, you could just see the tail of
this bed here, just the edge of it'.
4078 'Sorry, I am not familiar with the room'.
Reply 'Sorry, the bed is perhaps, this bed, there is a bed
along, you can see most of it, apart from what was obstructed by
the, by the cot'.
Reply 'There was a bed there. There was build-in wardrobes, I
think probably where that dotted line is there'.
00.37.41 4078 'Yeah'.
Reply 'Erm, and there's another bed along here, which is where
Madeleine was supposed to be, erm, and you could just maybe
catch the, it was probably set back a little bit, so you could
just sort of catch about sort of six or eight inches of the, so
you could see the outside corner, the corner deepest into the
4078 'Okay. So concentrate, if you can, on what you saw of that
bed and tell me what you saw''
Reply 'Nothing, apart from that, it's just the end of the bed
and that's, and that was it. And so it as just like the outside
corner, there was no, couldn't see the whole length, couldn't
see colours or legs or anything draping over it'.
4078 'Did it have bed clothing on it, can you remember, or was
it just a plain mattress or some sort of mattress cover or
(inaudible), can you remember''
Reply 'Erm, my, erm, this would be sort of a guess, I think what
I could see was a sheet and I think it was a metal base coming
round the corner, but I couldn't swear to that. There was only a
small bit that was visible'.
Reply 'I don't think it was a bare, a bare mattress, I'm fairly
sure there'd have been a sheet on it, but I don't remember
anything sort of as bulky as a duvet over it'.
4078 'Okay. And is there anything else you can say about what
you saw of that bed''
Reply 'No, erm, I don't remember there being a pattern on it, it
was, it was just sort of a glimpse and I don't know how reliable
my memory is for this, I think it was plain coloured, maybe, if
I was to go for it, I'd say it was sort of a light blue, but I
really don't recall anything specific about the end of that bed,
apart from just registering that there was a bed against that
wall and that's probably where Madeleine was'.
4078 'Okay. And you saw the side of the cots and you saw the
shapes and knew that they were both breathing''
Reply 'Yeah, I mean, you've got two cots, you know, along this
side, you've got the short, the long axis along the long room
and the short end, which I think is (inaudible), I think we had
a similar in, erm, with Grace, and there'd be a slight spacing
and then netting and so, from the side, you'd see, erm, part of
this one, slightly obstructed by this one, but enough to see
through the grill, erm, and this one you'd see through the,
through the mesh side, you'd see the kids'.
00.40.06 4078 'And the lighting was sufficient within the room
that you could make out what it was''
Reply 'You could make out that it wasn't blankets and just
something piled there, you could see the chest moving'.
4078 'Okay. Could you see anything else from where you were
Reply 'The rest is just sort vague impressions of, erm, of the
colour of the curtains, I couldn't tell what particular pattern,
but I just remember green and yellow with that. And there may
have been a duvet on the back bed behind the two cots. But
nothing else specific'.
4078 'Have you been into that room again since that moment''
Reply 'We didn't on the night. Erm, I don't think so. I think it
was it was then always cordoned off. I mean, I know that they,
Gerry and Kate were told to get their things out of there
because they were going to have to move rooms and then, and I
saw that photograph of the, of the cots moved to the side, and
they then sort of, erm, under instruction, were asked to move
things out of that room, but I think they just took sort of
essentials, because they then went up to, erm, Dave and Fiona's
room later that night, and I don't think I've been back in that
4078 'I am sorry, you already said how long you think you were
in the apartment for, I have forgotten''
Reply 'It can't have been more than a couple of minutes,
because, erm, I mean, there was no, you know, it was just sort
of a check and then it was back really. I remember sort of being
able to pivot here and be able to see this room door was open as
well and those shutters weren't down, they were just curtains
and that was fairly, fairly light as well. And I just sort of
came back out really through the same way and shutting the patio
00.41.58 4078 'So, like everybody that has had anything to do
with this inquiry, you must have played back in your own mind
the different possibilities of what could have happened''
4078 'And what conclusions have you come to, in so much as, if
there had been somebody else in the apartment, would it have
been possible for them to have been there without you seeing
Reply 'Erm, it's possible, in that, just in sort of, whether
it's technically possible, because this kitchen, there's like a
sort of breakfast bar there or an opening there, I mean, you,
and, you know, when you come up to here, somebody could be hid
behind those units there, there would be no problem. They could
have been, I can't remember where the bed is in this room,
because it was just a glimpse as I turned round, it may be out
there, but possibly there is space in there. And then there was
this question of whether somebody could hide in the wardrobes,
and I suppose they were physically big enough for them to be
able to do it. I mean, you know, since, everybody talked about
sort of what happened, you know, and, yeah, I talked in an
interview about whether I thought Madeleine was gone at that
point, and I said, well I thought she was, but then I knew that
Jane had seen this, had earlier seen this person and she
described pyjamas and everything, before she knew what Madeleine
actually was wearing, so when that sort of came out then it
seemed fairly likely that things had already been done, which I
think is partly why it's sort of been easier for me to deal with
the 'what ifs' than it is for her, because it seemed like
Madeleine had already gone at that point, but at the beginning,
when I didn't know, that was awful, when Kate came back and
said, she's gone, and they were going, did you see her, and I
had to say, well, no, I just made sure everything was alright
and that was, that was awful, that moment'.
4078 'Can you make any comment on the door or, erm, is this a
window as well, it is not, is it''
Reply 'Erm, there's a window, I think, well from the drawing I
don't recall it as a window there, that's the front door here,
then you come round past the shutters, and we listened outside
here, and the front door there. I, it's, I can't say, I don't
recall it being open, I'm sure, I presume that I would have seen
it, but I can't guarantee that it wasn't, erm, it wasn't shut at
that point. Erm, but, you know, there was nothing, it didn't
feel odd when you went into the, erm, into the apartment, it was
sort of quiet and, you know, sort of comfortably sort of dark'.
00.44.26 4078 'Is there anything else, sort of trying to draw
that moment out for as long as we possibly can and just go'.
Reply 'Yeah, yeah'.
4078 'Is there anything else, that you smelt, could you smell
Reply 'No, no, we've talked about that before, I didn't smell
anything, I mean, I could see the children breathing, but I
didn't clock it as abnormal, erm, it'd be completely to
speculate to say whether their breathing was fast or, I couldn't
say, I mean, they were breathing and that's what, you know, and
that was what I was there to check, erm, no, no funny sort of
smells, no sort of funny draughts, no sort of funny sort of
noises, no, erm, nothing that I can think of for that. I mean,
it was a complete just a shock out of the blue when, you know,
I'd been in and then suddenly somebody's saying Madeleine's
missing, there was nothing that made me think, oh'.
4078 'Okay. Did you leave by the patio door''
Reply 'Yeah, back the same way, because this door would have
been locked and that's the shortest way anyway of coming through
there, so I would have gone back out the same door'.
4078 'And back to the table''
4078 'Okay. We will move back then from that check. I am sure
you would have already mentioned, but did you see anybody''
00.45.51 4078 'Hear any cars''
Reply 'No. No, I mean, as I say, it was nearly always completely
deserted, there was very few people in the resort, erm, you
know, you only rarely saw, you know, occasionally people move
about on the street and that was mostly during the day, erm,
everybody else seemed to sort of eat earlier or, erm, used the
baby sitting or whatever service, there were a few people about
between and there wasn't really much of a thoroughfare for, erm,
for traffic, so nothing that stuck out'.
4078 'In know specifically one of the Portuguese questions was,
did you hear footsteps or car doors opening and shutting''
Reply 'No (inaudible)'.
4078 'Okay. And you attended the Tapas Bar. And what was
happening there at that stage when you got back''
Reply 'Erm, well everybody, apart from Russell and I were back,
so I arrived back before Russell, erm, I think I said, all
quiet, or something to, erm, to, you know, Kate and Gerry and
just sort of sat back down and we carried on and I told Jane
that Evie had been sick and so later on when his food came, we
said, he's going to be late, can we sort of send it back or you
just keep it warm and he'll have it later on, erm, we had a
conversation as normal, I just remember launching into this Jane
4078 'We touched on that yesterday'.
Reply 'It probably came up but seemed inappropriate to mention.
But, erm, she went off to relieve Russell, as it were, to sort
of take over, erm, sort of duties and make sure that Evie was
alright and then Russell came back and they actually redid his
food, erm, I mean, he was eating it when the next sort of checks
went, which were about half an hour later'
4078 'So you think it was about half an hour between your
Reply 'It would have been around that sort of time and the
reason I think thirty minutes is because I, I don't know whether
this is memory now or whether it's since we've been talking
about it, Gerry said or Kate said, it's about thirty minutes
since the last check, we ought to go, so that's why I think it's
thirty minutes, erm, because I think that main course would have
taken a bit longer because, you know, Russell came back and we
started chatting, you know, how's Evie and all that sort of
thing, erm, so, I think he was still eating at the time, so we
waited until he'd finished before we went'.
00.48.23 4078 'And then who did the next check''
Reply 'Well Kate went and did the next check and think because
we'd, I didn't, we didn't all go at that point, just Kate went
and, erm, and then came running back saying, she's gone, Gerry
Madeleine's gone, and she was sort of borderline hysterical, as
you'd expect, and then there was just a blur as everybody then
just ran off from the table. Erm, then everybody I think left
the table, I mean, I just remember being behind Dave as he was,
and Gerry, as they were running, erm, Russell I think
(inaudible) a bit behind and so we all ran. If you ask whether
we went, you know, into the apartment and I'm almost a hundred
percent sure we didn't go to the apartment, we were, because it
was just so awful, so Gerry and Kate and maybe Dave, I'm not
sure, but went sort of to the bottom of the steps and they sort
of went in, erm, and as soon as they sort of said, you know,
she's gone and everything, all hell broke loose, we went round
to check firstly on Grace to make sure she was okay and we
dropped Rachael up there, telling her that she wasn't to move,
Jane came out of the apartment, did she come out of the
apartment at that point or was it later in the evening, I can't
remember, but I remember seeing them, you know, most of the time
and then for the rest of the evening they were stood, you know,
at the doorways to the apartments, erm, we went back round, erm,
and everybody was just running around like sort of headless
chickens, so I remember saying, you know, we need a plan, I
mean, I don't know why I said that but I think I'd just read too
many novels, because everybody just seemed to just sort of run,
there was sort of no organisation, you know, and it was
obviously important that we, you know, we did something
constructive rather than just running around looking in the
hedgerows if, you know, what we, because we all went through
this, you know, is she really gone, surely she must have just
sort of wandered off and we're just going to find her and she's
going to be there, but, you know, she's like a four year old
child and, you know, she, I mean, all the doors were shut, she
wasn't really going to run off and then Jane said, the shutters
up, and, you know, we sort of scarpered and Dave and Russell
were just running off sort of shouting, so Fiona, I think, asked
me to go and phone the Police, so I actually went down the route
to where she would have gone for Nursery drop off, which his
back to the, to the main reception essentially, so I went down
that route looking for her at that time and I asked the
reception to phone the Police, and that must have been about
five past, it's difficult to know what time it was at that time,
but maybe about ten past ten, five past ten, ten past ten'.
00.51.10 4078 'Quite quick then''
Reply 'Yeah, sort of pretty much, you know, straight away, erm,
I think it was only, but then it was a kind of, it was surreal
when you got there, I said, you've got to phone the Police, you
know, a child's been taken, and they went, oh no, she's probably
just sort of woken up and he thought she's probably sort of
wandered off or something like that and you thought, yeah, maybe
you're right, maybe you're right, erm, can you please, it was
sort of, it was kind of, it was sort a weird kind of lack of
urgency, you know, he'd ring, but you had to sort and stand
there and say, ring now, ring now, so I don't know if they rang
at that point, but certainly, erm, you know, I certainly asked
them to, about perhaps sort of maybe about ten past ten maybe.
Erm, then we went back up to, or I went, because I was on my
own, I went back up to the, erm, to the apartment and it was
just obvious that she wasn't in the apartment, but we were still
sort of just milling about on the street, everybody was just
running around just sort of trying to, you know, sort of search
nearby roads. And so we, erm, I volunteered to go up to the,
erm, I went up to the Millennium Restaurant because it was just
one of the routes that I thought she might have taken, although
I couldn't say why I thought she would because we'd only been
there once on that night before and maybe she'd been for the
restaurant, so we'd only been at the initial welcoming, that was
the only time that we went for that meal in the evening because
the food wasn't great there, it wasn't quite up to the MARK
WARNER resorts of, but anyway, so we did other things and that's
why we liked the Tapas, so there was no reason really why she'd
have gone up there, but it was a, just a different route. So a
lot of it in terms of timing is blurred, but up and onto the top
road to the Millennium Restaurant, which is pretty much you come
up and along this road for about sort of five or ten minutes and
sort of this end of town, let them know that a little girl was
missing and then gone back through the back streets, down on the
beach and then back to the apartment. Erm, at some point we were
back and forth to the, to the reception as well. And I think
what the reception probably did was ring the MARK WARNER people
and say, there's somebody that's saying there's a child missing,
because by that time there were lost of MARK WARNER people
around, erm, and they were very good, they, you know, they
obviously, you know, got there and that might have been the
impetus that got them to ring the Police, if, because I
understand that there is some discrepancy about when we thought
we'd called the Police and when the Police were actually called
and that might be that they went on the, on that route first and
then went, I think it's Stuart HILL or, well the Manager, the
sort of Manager got involved, that might have been when it
occurred. Erm, so there was plenty of running around through the
back streets and back to the apartment and then, you know,
where's the, where are the Police, where are the Police, erm,
and so went back down to the reception, this would have been
about thirty minutes or so later, erm, back to reception, erm,
and at that point, Gerry had come down as well, erm, and, erm,
you know, was obviously, you know, sort of intermittently sort
of calm and then completely, you know, hysterically upset, it
was sort of, you know, it was sort of pretty sort of upsetting,
because you didn't know what to really say, because you can't
really say, you know, it's going to be okay, because, you know,
you assume the worst and it's going to be particularly awful,
you know, it's going, you know, some, erm, person's got,
(inaudible), some xxxxxxx's got my, you know, got my daughter
and she's so innocent. And, I mean, at that point, we were sort
of in a room next door, you know, the bedroom across, and we
thought maybe it could have been Grace quite easily. Erm, but,
you know, there's, you know, seeing them normal all the time and
then to go to that was just, you couldn't act it, it just
wasn't, it was just, you don't know how you're going to react in
that sort of situation, but, erm, you know, it was just, we've
already mentioned the sort of frightening and you wanted to be
away from it, but you wanted to try to do something to make it
better, but you couldn't'.
00.55.19 4078 'You feel helpless''
Reply 'You are and yet people on the outside of it, erm,
responded in a much more practical way, of course, they would
do, but with decent suggestions about doing this, doing that,
you know. But, erm, we were there about sort of eleven, ten past
eleven when the GNR sort of Police arrived and there was two of
them in a Police car. Somebody's asked whether the siren was on
and I think the lights were flashing but I don't remember, and I
may have heard the siren in the distance, but I can't recall. So
they arrived just about five minutes after Gerry and I had been
there. And one of the cleaning ladies I think came to translate,
I think this is Sylvia or Sylvie, I'm not sure, but she was
there helping, you know, saying, this is, you know, this is the
father. And they put him in the car and drove back up to the
apartment. And then, erm, after that we did more headless
running around, checked on Grace, erm, you know, at times we
were sort of like crossing each other, there was Dave, and
running on my own, and sort of the other way, and I then went
out on the coast road a bit further down, erm, I don't know what
we thought we could do, but it was just better than being close
to them and being there, erm, and so we ran out on that, I think
this road unfortunately is called, erm, which road is it,
Cemetery Road I think it's called, I seem to remember noticing
it because it seemed like a horrible, I think it's this bit
4078 'It covers quite a lot of area'.
Reply 'You're basically out on, I think this is Cemetery Road or
one of these roads and it just takes you out down the coast and
there's lots of new build sort of resorts going up'.
4078 'And all the areas that made a search, with hindsight or at
the time, there was nothing that you can think of that might be
Reply 'No, because as you went on you'd meet other groups, there
was Nathan, one of the waterfront people, who managed the
waterfront, who we'd met previous on a MARK WARNER holiday, so,
you know, you'd sort of cross paths with people who were sort of
searching and then, you know, it'd get deserted and there were
dogs barking at you as you sort of wandered around, because some
of the apartments were occupied and some were still being built,
so there was a kind of a bit of, a sort of a lonely sort of
isolated place, but, you know, it was all very sort of close,
and there was nothing, you know, looking for sort of like funny
parked cars or, erm, you know, anything really that seemed a bit
00.57.42 4078 'Did you see Kate during that initial''
Reply 'No, no, I mean, partly, you know, because I just didn't
know what to say to them and partly because by that time they
were in with the Police. And then we went to bed about sort of
two, three, something like that'.
4078 'You obviously found it very, very difficult seeing Gerry
in that state''
Reply ' Yeah, most, yeah, I mean, it was pretty upsetting sort
of seeing him like he was and also, you know, because, you know,
we thought, obviously we were all having the same sort of
thoughts, that, you know, you know, paedophiles, Madeleine's
gone, a little girl. Erm, Rachael stayed at the apartment and,
erm, and I think Jane did as well, erm, around. I think we, at
one stage, on one of the return visits, I did go into the
apartment, just as far perhaps as the, erm, as the kitchen, and
I could see them sat on the sofa, but they were in with the
Police and there was nothing we could do or say, so we came back
out, and that's the only time I went back into the apartment'.
4078 'When did you first become aware of what Jane had seen, can
Reply 'No, erm, I think it might, I don't know whether she came
on the same night, because I think it sort of, the realisation
hit her that she might have seen something, so I think it
probably, it may well have been the same night. I don't know
whether it was that night or the next day, but I feel fairly
sure it would have triggered her memory, but I can't say for
00.59.22 4078 'How are you doing''
Reply 'Umm, I'm okay, thank you'.
4078 'I think it has brought it has brought it home to all of us
just, you know, what a mental trauma it has been, for you as a
group of friends as well'.
4078 'Which, you know, perhaps people don't appreciate because
they just read what they read in the Press and forget that
there's a group of people who have been so affected'.
Reply 'Yeah, umm, I think it's just because it could be, so
easily have been'.
Reply 'I mean, initially we went through this, it could have
been because of the location of the apartments, it could have
been Grace, you know, we could have been the ones having to
generate this, you know, and deal with it as best we could and
make it useful and do something useful about it rather than just
sort of collapsing. I mean, I don't know how they've done it.
Erm, but then, you know, it's, and you thought, oh well, you
know, maybe because Madeleine's sort of quite, you know,
(inaudible) and, you know, petite and, you know, maybe it wasn't
quite so likely. And then it, you know, sort of that goes away
and then you're left with not knowing what happened. Erm, and
then as well, although we weren't particularly close to them
before, erm, we didn't see them particularly socially until
after this, it's still, you know, none of us move on'.
4078 'How often have you been in contact with them since''
Reply 'Erm, I mean, you settle back down as time goes on and it
does sort of ease itself a little bit, you are able to then sort
of, to function and sort of carry on, sort of people a bit
further away, and because we're sort of further from them in
terms of the usual contact, it's not been, erm, quite so
difficult for us to escape it to a certain extent. Erm, but we'd
speak to them, I mean, initially it was every few days and then
sort of every week and now it's about every sort of two to there
4078 'Yeah. There are things I can think of that I need to go
back over and clarify with you'.
Reply 'That's fine. That's fine'.
01.01.20 4078 'Do you want to carry on with that now''
Reply 'Yeah, yeah'.
4078 'Or do you want to stop and have a break, have lunch''
Reply 'No, no'.
4078 'You want to carry on''
Reply 'I don't think it'll go away if we do it later anyway.
But, I mean, if you're okay''
4078 'Yeah, fine, fine. Just, I will ask the things that I can
think of then, because otherwise I may forget later, you know,
it probably won't take very long anyway, because we will need to
do further interviews later. At the beginning of your recall of
4078 'Well not at the beginning, at the beginning of the
evening, you mentioned that you went back, after you had been to
the beach, you went back to the room and got your tennis
4078 'Had you taken tennis equipment with you''
Reply 'On holiday''
Reply 'Yeah, yeah, so we had took trainers and sort of, you
know, the kit and the tennis racquets'.
4078 'Okay. Do you know whether the rest of the group had taken
equipment or was it available to hire there''
Reply 'It's available from the hire, I mean, definitely, I'm not
sure if Gerry and Kate, I think everybody else didn't take
tennis kit and hired it, and I know for a while we had two
tennis racquets sitting in one of the buggies that were owned by
the, erm, by the MARK WARNER complex. Erm, they have been
returned since, but they were definitely, at least two. I don't
think Dave and Fiona and I don't think Russell and Jane and I'm
not sure about Gerry and Kate, whether they took the stuff with
01.02.39 4078 'Okay. And the only other thing I can think of at
this point in time. You mentioned that after it was discovered
that Madeleine had gone, everyone was running around and you
were conscious that there was no organisation. Did you take it
upon yourself to start organising''
Reply 'No, and this is again, this is the sort of, another thing
that, you kind of know the theory, well it's just from sort of
reading sort of novels and just sort of being sensible, there
was obviously, you know, (inaudible) there is obviously a time
that you need to get everything done sort of pretty fast,
because, you know, if you just think about it logically now, I
know that's what we were thinking at the time, but you just see
so many people running around, looking in hedgerows, that's fine
if she's just wandered off, you're going to find her even if it
takes half an hour, but if she's been driven by somebody at
speed, you need to get onto that, get orders, whatever, and
whatever response you think you need or we thought locally we'd
need, I mean, you just sort of start that straight away. But
there was that initial inertia of, are we sure she's really
gone, are you sure she's not there and she's sort of hiding in
the bathroom or something, erm, before it sort of kicked in.
But, you know, I was going, we need to have a plan, but
everybody had already run, there was nobody to sort of impose it
upon. And, you know, I don't know that, I think if I'd done
anything differently I would have stood by the desk and said,
no, you must ring now, you really must, rather than just sort of
saying, oh, you know, and sort of at the back of my mind
thinking, well maybe they're right, maybe I'll go back and she's
just turned up and that'll be absolutely fantastic, maybe I'm
wasting his time, but I didn't stand over the desk and say, do
it. Erm, but, aside from that, there was no real, you know, sort
of structured plan of what we should do'.
01.04.26 4078 'And, as time went on, did you, as a group, become
more structured in what you were doing because of the way
Reply 'Erm, we became more structured, in that, we didn't do
anything, in terms of, you know, life then just became, you
know, one wander to child care and back and interviews and alike
from there. I think the media side of things, which we, erm, I
think a lot of people informed the media straight, erm, sort of
fairly quickly, because we know James LANDALE who does BBC News
twenty-four, erm, sort of personally, and his wife, and we did
ring them. I mean, you know, I think we were asked not, you
know, people suggesting that it wouldn't be a good idea to the
Press, but, and they may be right, but, as a group, we thought
that you need some exposure on this because if you need to get
it out there. And that was sort of as much a criticism, erm, it
wasn't sort of a criticism of the Portuguese Police, it was just
that it felt like the right thing to do and it just seemed like
a good idea at the time, you know, to sort of try and get some
exposure. And I think we rang up James or his wife, Kath LANDALE,
and asked, you know, how we, how you could do that and they gave
us a number. And then I think, we hadn't, erm, I think then
there was phone contact between Rachael and the desk, saying,
you know, do you want to go forward with this, because we, we
mentioned it but didn't sort of authorise anybody to sort of to
go, because we hadn't spoken to the Police yet, we didn't know
what they wanted to do, erm, and how they'd feel about it, so we
held it back, but I think there were people within the group and
it sort of got out pretty quickly'.
4078 'There has been'.
Reply 'In terms of organisation, no, I think it was, we were
pretty useless as a group, you know. I mean, the extended family
for Gerry and Kate, erm, were useful, I think we were just
4078 'Well it wasn't just Gerry and Kate that needed the support
really when you look back'.
Reply 'No. Yeah, we got plenty of that'.
01.06.30 4078 'And I assume you all are still now'.
4078 'It was obviously very, very hard for you all. There has
been a kind of a timeline that was drawn up between the group''
4078 'I can't confidently say who did it or when it was drawn
up, but what can you tell me about that''
Reply 'I think, the timeline has been sort of, you know, we all
thought it was a good idea, you know, (inaudible) Gerry and Kate
were there, you know, with the Police trying to sort things out
and we were sort of, the rest of the group sort of were trying
to make sense of it and do what we thought we could to help, so
the timeline, we sort of said, if we write down everything then
while our memory's fresh we'll remember what we did, you know,
it should help, you know, it may help. Erm, and we then, we
actually took it into the first interview and said, look, we've
done this and they said, no, you can't read from that. And, of
course, you can understand now why it didn't seem like a good
idea, but at the time it just seemed like a sensible thing to do
to try and get all our recall of everything that we'd done down
as fast as possible. And I think there were various attempts,
erm, and I think we sort of might, erm, I don't know whether
there was anything done on the night, but the next sort of day
or two, certainly in the first two days, erm, we got together to
go through it. But it was mostly us not Gerry and Kate, I think
they, they might have contributed to it later'.
Reply 'And we got a computer I think to write it down so we
could hand it over'.
4078 'Okay. I think we are going to stop here. I need to collect
my thoughts and go back and speak to the people monitoring to
find out if, up until this point, we have missed out anything
01.08.05 4078 'Once we have done that and we have gone back over
things that we might have missed'.
4078 'Then we will move on to just sort of mop up really the
rest of the Portuguese questions'.
4078 'And the telephone, there isn't much telephone (inaudible),
as I said earlier, and then Gerry and Kate's questions. But
during those processes again we will be stopping to check to see
if there is any more things that come up'.
Reply 'Fine, yeah'.
4078 'I know that lunch arrived probably about half an hour ago
and you have had a difficult hour, so we will have a break now'.
Reply 'Yeah, okay'.
4078 'So it is now three minutes past one and we will end this
SM M OLDFIELD 09.04.08
00:00:02 4078 "Okay its eighteen minutes past three
on the afternoon of Wednesday the ninth of April two thousand
and eight. We're in an interview room at Force Headquarters and
I'm DC FERGUSON from the Leicestershire Major Crime Unit.'
Reply "And I'm Matthew David OLDFIELD.'
4078 "Thank you Matthew. We've just done a quick interview and
covered some of these questions I'm about, well all of the
questions I'm about to put to you again, unfortunately because
of a technical problem we're having to go through it so I
apologise again for that and I'll just rattle off the questions
if I may.'
Reply "Yeah that's fine.'
4078 "The first one was, when did you last see Madeleine''
Reply "Err I'm not quite sure when I last saw her because it
depending on whether we had lunch together as a group in David
and Fiona's, which err we may have done on the last day because
it got more common as we went through the week but it was more
common for the six in terms of the, David, Fiona, already in the
apartment of course with Dianne and err Russ and Jane and Grace
and Rachael and I to go up there and have lunch as a group than
it was to have err the full complete group there at lunch time.
Err but it would seem now, it probably wasn't until the day
previously because we'd seen them in the evening after their
usual tea so I think on that day, on the final, on the Thursday
when we came back up from tennis I'm not sure that Kate and the
children err were there outside the tennis court when we arrived
because we arrived late and it would have been about bedtime so
I can't specifically recall whether I saw Madeleine at that
point, but we sort of arrived, err it wasn't sort of big groups
who were doing the usual sort of chasing games, they may have
gone earlier because everybody else of course was still down
with our wives, down in the err down at the restaurant on the
beach so it would have been quite sort of the same sort of
playgroup and they may have, I think they went back and they
were gone by the time I got to the tennis courts.'
00:01:49 4078 "Okay. We also covered on the last interview, did
you ever leave your apartment by the poolside door''
Reply "And we did if it was err during the day and there was one
of us in the apartment then we'd have gone in and out through
the patio door because it was the most direct way to get to the
err pool and the Tapas restaurant err but otherwise certainly in
the evening we'd have locked that patio door because you
couldn't lock it from the, err you could only lock it from the
inside, its like a snick connector, I don't know why I keep
saying snick but I don't know whether its a northern term, but
there was a little hasp on the handle that you lock over to lock
the patio doors and you can only do that from the inside, it
wasn't lockable from the out so we'd shut that and gone back out
the other door and locked that. So during the day we might have
done to get in and out to get equipment but err at night, no.'
00:02:38 4078 "So at night times you'd always have that door
locked when you'd exit''
Reply "The patio door would be locked and you'd go out through
4078 "Gone through the other''
Reply "Main door and lock that one.'
4078 "Which then you locked behind you.'
4078 "After you went.'
Reply "You had to lock it because it would open on the, it
wouldn't shut through like a Yale lock it would close just on a,
on a handle that opened it.'
4078 "So to generalise then, whenever you were all out of your
apartment it was locked''
4078 "And whenever you were sort of coming or, and going unless
somebody remained within the apartment''
Reply "It would...'
4078 "The patio door could have been open''
4078 "Or at least not locked.'
Reply "Yeah, because usually if err, if it was reasonable
weather err Rachael or, would have been sat in the sunshine,
essentially reading it book it'd be, so that probably would,
probably have been open but somebody would have been sat on top
of it so err while Grace slept at lunch time.'
4078 "Okay. And then just to mop up the questions that were
outstanding from the Portuguese, when you went into check
Madeleine, Sean and Amelie the evening that Kate asked you to do
that on the third of May, when you went in through their patio
door did you close that after you went in''
00:03:44 Reply "Err I, I'm fairly sure I would have closed that,
if not completely to, I'm pretty sure the more I think about it
though I would have closed it to, because I wouldn't have wanted
there to be err a sort of a funny draught or, or some noise, or
something that made the door slam that would have woken them up
so I pulled it to, behind me, but I can't guarantee it was
completely shut, but it would have been there or thereabouts.'
4078 "And then when you left after the check''
Reply "And certainly when I left it would have been completely
4078 "And we covered the weather, you can't remember it being a
particularly windy night.'
Reply "No I don't remember much about the weather on that night
err I'm just thinking more about when we were actually running
along the beach and along the err and along the front doing the,
the search and I don't recall it being err particularly windy
but as I think we said but last time it was windy enough for us
to sail in the afternoon but they didn't necessarily translate
it to have been windy in the evening.'
00:04:46 4078 "Then there was the question of obviously you said
when you think you may have seen Madeleine last and I asked did
you see the MCCANN'S during the afternoon of the third of May''
Reply "Err I don't recall seeing Kate because I think she was
gone by the time we got back up from, err from the restaurant to
get the tennis gear but I would have seen, I saw Gerry because
he was playing tennis with the social group which was the, the
social session tennis, which was what we were coming back up to
attend. So he was definitely there, I would have said hello to
4078 "And prior to that you were on the beach because you'd been
Reply "We'd been sailing and we hadn't, because it was a bit of
a walk down to the beach we hadn't gone down to the beach
particularly frequently, we thought we'd get down more often
than that but it was, by the time the girls had woken up it was
just time for, to get them ready to muck about a bit and go to
the, go to the pool or to the slide before it was their tea time
and then they'd join the rest of the group from there so we
didn't go down to the beach particularly much, we did on that
last day, mostly because we hadn't done it or even that week and
it was a bit of a waste and you know because Russell and err and
I were already there on the boat.'
00:05:50 4078 "But neither of the MCCANN'S were there on the
4078 "Okay, we went through the phone number and I gave you a
phone number which I'll just read out for the benefit of anyone
watching this DVD, it's plus four, four, seven, nine, five,
eight, eight, seven, nine, eight, seven, nine, and''
Reply "Its not a number I recognise and it's got that, I
wondered whether it the part of the hospital because its got
that repeat that it's the nine, eight, and the nine that makes
it sound like a, an official''
Reply "Building but its not our hospital number so err I don't
recognise it, I can't find it on my, my phone.'
00:06:32 4078 "Okay, I think we also spoke about, and I
specifically asked you about the tennis equipment that the
MCCANN'S may have had.'
Reply "Yeah, and I don't recall seeing that they had some err I
think they're more likely than Russell and, and Dave to actually
have their own tennis gear because I think they were more
serious about their, their sport in some ways err I know Russell
definitely and I think err both Russell, Jane, Dave and Fiona
all borrowed equipment from the tennis people. Gerry and Kate I
think borrowed as well err and I can't remember having their,
their own kit but I didn't specifically notice it and it didn't
remember seeing err tennis bags but I wasn't in the apartment
and we didn't travel together at the same time so I may be wrong
4078 "We then went through questions from Kate and Gerry so''
4078 "What I'm going to do is go through your responses and if
there's anything that I say that you don't agree with then speak
up. We've covered how long you knew Kate and Gerry, you said
you'd never visited their home address, you've not been on
holiday with them before and on the holiday that you did go on
with them you met them sort of during the evenings, err sort of
late afternoon and in the evenings.'
Reply "Yeah, there'd been a couple of lunch times. I suppose the
only caviat after that is the wedding, that wasn't really, oh
there was a holiday, it wasn't really a, there was kind of a,
the only time''
00:08:00 4078 "I suppose yeah because it was in Italy wasn't
Reply "So it was technically more than just a, you know.'
4078 "Mm, and you went for your run with Kate on the Wednesday
4078 "In relation to the children, you saw them at playtime,
sort of after tea.'
Reply "Yeah, drop off at nursery just for, for the twins because
they were in the same area as Grace.'
4078 "And have you ever felt that you had a reason to become
somehow concerned about the children''
Reply "No, not at all, and I think we talked in an earlier
interview, but they were always, it was always very appropriate,
they were well rounded, appropriately confident, they weren't
particularly clingy you know they weren't scared of their
parents it was all, it was all very normal.'
4078 "You've gone through when you saw them on the third of May
and your arrival at the Tapas bar, who was already there' You
already said it was Kate and Gerry and you think they may have
been talking to somebody else but you can't clearly remember
4078 "And then you just sat down, as far as you recall you sat
down as normal.'
4078 "And then everyone else duly arrived.'
Reply "Yeah, there was derogatory things about time keeping for
Dave and Fiona.'
4078 "In relation to Kate and Gerry's behaviour it was
Reply "Completely normal throughout the meal and, you know, at
all times really until after the event, and then it was
00:09:20 4078 "We've already gone through who left the table and
at what stages on the previous, or on our initial interview. And
it, and also you've already told me that when Kate got back to
the table she was literally bordering on being hysterical.'
4078 "Once she'd discovered that Madeleine was missing.'
Reply "I mean that bit, you, you heard her calling before she
got back to the table I mean you know she was, you know she must
have been half way down the, the route between her room and, err
between their room and the restaurant so you heard her before
you saw her err and you could just hear the panic in her voice
but then it was just everybody run, rushing back to the
apartment so you know I don't think she got as far as the table
before we were all up and, and going.'
4078 "And then the question of were you shocked about what she
said, you were shocked at the facts that she was reporting.'
4078 "But you were, they were very appropriate in the way that
she was saying''
4078 "If you imagined yourself in her shoes.'
Reply "Yeah, yeah.'
00:10:21 4078 "I mean you obviously would be distraught.'
Reply "That moment is just it can't be, it's just not possible,
it just doesn't really happen apart from on the news and in
stories obviously it does happen but you know the, it was just
completely non-real for the, for, for the moment and its only as
things went on that it became err became reality because you
were just hoping and expecting that it was just going to be some
dreadful mistake and that she was wrong, and it just takes a
while for that to really hit, it is actually happening.'
4078 "You didn't really go into the MCCANN'S apartment after
that, you saw Gerry and Kate on the sofa and they were engaged
with the Police at that stage.'
Reply "Yeah they were obviously later in the''
4078 "And you didn't see the twins so therefore you didn't
notice anything unusual about them because you hadn't seen them
00:11:11 4078 "You've already given an account of how you got
involved in the searches and the fact that you went to speak to
people at reception, and you noticed Nathan, somebody from Mark
Reply "Yeah, water front manager err who we'd met before on a
previous Mark Warner holiday. I think he recognised us or maybe
he recognised Rachael and then the association to me err but err
yeah we knew, we'd met him before.'
4078 "And you didn't really see Kate so you couldn't comment on
her reaction after the first ten minutes when''
Reply "No, I mean who was, it was just indirectly through you
know Fiona and people sort of (inaudible) and seeing you know,
how upset and everything she was, but i didn't directly see
4078 "And with Gerry, you said he was absolutely distraught.'
4078 "And you felt their behaviour was completely appropriate
under the circumstances.'
Reply "Yeah, I mean he was just saying his thoughts to me and we
all thought about our own children and how it would be and if a
child goes missing and then taken out the room you assume the
worst and you assume the worst thing that could possibly happen
to them and just the, the difficult thing for all of us you
know, the thing that always concerns about leaving them in their
rooms till we'd thought about it and talked about in between
couples and between Rachael and I was, I mean, the worst thing
you go well, you know, why you worrying so much, they're locked
in, they're safe, the worst thing that can happen is they wake
up and not really know where you are for five, ten minutes, and
first that's pretty unlikely, Grace sleeps all the way through
nearly, you know, nine times out of a hundred, and at worst
she's gonna be upset for ten minutes and then you're gonna be,
you're gonna be there err just the thought of something like
this is just, err completely just out of our experience you
know, it was just awful.'
00:13:00 4078 "Did you notice Kate and Gerry talking to anybody
unknown during the evening meal''
Reply "No, err no, not that weren't known to all of us as part
of the, err either the rest of the holiday group or err staff.'
4078 "And did you see them''
Reply "Nobody stuck in''
4078 "Sorry. Did you see them inside a car during the holiday''
Reply "No, no I didn't know there was a car.'
4078 "Then there was this awkward question that, is there any
4078 "That you consider pertinent or relevant to establish the
Reply "No there's nothing that we haven't, err I haven't
suggested or thought of (inaudible).'
4078 "I think we also clarified the point that the time that you
went in to check on Madeleine and the twins was the only time
you went into their apartment to check the children.'
4078 "And your normal priority was really to check Grace.'
4078 "Which you and Rachael had been doing between you at
Reply "Yeah, and it just fell to each couple to err to check
each others and then, I think I might have mentioned in one of
the previous ones they, Dave and Fiona had a, had a monitor
stretched the distance across from the, their apartment to ours
and it was just that as the holiday went on and you knew from
better, it seemed like the sort of nice thing to do, to, offer
to do it on that last, on the last night, but it wasn't usual
routine err for us to check on each other's children, it may be
different for Dave and Fiona you know Gerry and Kate better and
their children better err but for us it only, you know, during
the holiday it didn't seem appropriate at the beginning, it
wouldn't be our natural response to do it.'
00:14:33 4078 "And in relation to checking Grace, because it was
like at natural intervals your guess is it was sort of every,
between every fifteen to thirty minutes.'
Reply "Yeah I think thirty would be the, the outside err because
I mentioned earlier I'm a fairly fast eater and I was finished
and rather than just sitting there twiddling my thumbs while
everybody else was still eating, I'd have usually gone, I say I
volunteered to do it so I probably did more of the checking on
Grace than Rachael although she would have done during the days
of the holiday.'
4078 "Okay. I'm just going to make sure that I've got everything
that we've previously covered.'
Reply "Okay, I remembered (inaudible).'
Reply "Yeah that's fine.'
00:15:08 DC FERGUSON left the interview room.
00:16:00 DC FERGUSON re-entered the interview room.
4078 "There was one thing we forgot.'
4078 "Robert MURAT.'
Reply "Oh yeah, err never saw him, I didn't see him on the night
but I wasn't around the apartment as much. I know he, that
Rachael and Fiona saw him on that night but I didn't recognise
him when the, when the picture came up and they all suddenly
went we saw that man on the night. He didn't mean anything to
me, err I'd not seen him. The first I'd seen him was on the, on
the news. I had no interaction with him then and I know he
interviewed err or translated at the Police Station but he
wasn't involved in any translation for me and I hadn't see him
4078 "Okay. Thank you. It's now fifteen thirty four, is there
anything else that you needed to say before we finished''
Reply "We covered the re-enactment (inaudible).'
4078 "Well we did speak about the re-enactment last time.'
Reply "Yeah I just remembered when you said that you remembered
Reply "For something else. Err and I think for, for us it was a
question of (sighs) we'd do anything that would make a
difference to this. If it was gonna be genuinely helpful then
there'd be no question that we'd go and do it. There are a
number of sort of practical issues in terms of you know
childcare and would it be the seven or would it be the whole
nine, I mean err you know to recreate the entire night. It would
need to be Gerry and Kate, of course they are arguidos and
they'd be feel, I'm sure they'd feel a bit more nervous about
going back to do it once that was err whilst they would struggle
under that and I think from our point of view we couldn't see,
or from my point of view I can't see quite what extra would
people get out of it given that we've already given the
statements err and timeline and been questioned about that as
much as we can remember it, so we'd basically just be following
what we, what we said in terms of timing and we have concerns
that it's not really gonna add anything and maybe that if you
were to play devil's advocate and be very suspicious you might
be saying it was just being done to create a problem and create
inconsistencies. Now that might not be the case and there may be
very good reasons that something else would come out of it but
in terms of how it's gonna help find Madeleine I don't see yet
why that would be a benefit, and its use such as whether not
necessarily the Police sort of video but whether somebody sort
of in all the apartments that overlooks it could be videoing it
and releasing it in sort of an edited form or, or just in
general because there's been moments when we've sat round a
table going, did you sit there and looking at watches and it
might look a bit sort of odd and we wouldn't want that to be out
in the err out in the open without good err you know good a, a
reason to think that it was going to beneficial.'
00:18:35 4078 "I think you also mentioned that you were
concerned about perhaps the weather conditions might not be the
same as they were that night.'
Reply "Yeah, I think that was more of the practical side that if
it, if its being done now because of the weather conditions then
what happens if it was, you know, stormy for a week, I mean it
wouldn't be quite the same, it might be darker because the storm
clouds would, would that then mean that we'd wait for a week or
two, how open ended would it be err and also a bit of concern
that this is a sensitive time, its going to be a year
Reply "And you know Kate would rather be doing, and all of us
would rather be doing something that was err a more sort of
reflective on the time rather than being, I suppose the horror
of that night and getting on that particular anniversary time,
the timing is not good.'
Reply "You know, I can understand the reasons for asking for it
for being the same time of year.'
4078 "Yeah. So you're not sort or refusing to attend the
re-enactment because of just being awkward.'
4078 "You're just, can't see the value in it.'
4078 "And you have a number of concerns that you'd like to be
resolved before you commit yourself.'
Reply "Yeah, and I think I'm fairly sure everybody else will say
similar sort of thing. I think Gerry and Kate, a bit more tricky
from err the legal point of view.'
Reply "And actually, bizarrely enough I've got, I was supposed
to be going on a friends, supposed to be a friends stag do that
weekend and the best man rang up and said we're now going to
Lisbon, well maybe not that weekend, it might not be the best
but I might have been out there anyway, but its not gonna happen
4078 "Okay, is there anything else''
Reply "No, no I don't think so.'
4078 "Thank you for your patience.'
Reply "No that's alright.'
4078 "It's now fifteen thirty eight and we'll finish this
00:20:14 The interview ceased at 1538 hours
when the tape recorder was switched off.
Forenames: MATTHEW DAVID
Age: Date of Birth:
Statement Date: 9/04/2008 Number of Pages: 1
I am the above named and I live at the address given to the
On Wednesday, 9th of April 2008, between 10:19 hours and 11:22
hours I was interviewed by Detective Constable FERGUSON at
Leicestershire Police Headquarters, the interview was recorded
on DVD. I am able to state that what I said during that
interview is an accurate account of my evidence.
On Wednesday,9th April 2008 , between 11:54 hours and 13:08
hours I was interviewed by Detective Constable FERGUSON at
Leicestershire Headquarters, the interview was recorded on DVD.
I am able to state that what I said during that interview is an
accurate account of my evidence.
On Wednesday, 9th April 2008, between 14:14 hours and 14:51
hours I was interviewed by Detective FERGUSON at Leicestershire
Police Headquarters. As a result of a technical problem this
interview did not record. I was then re-interviewed by DC
FERGUSON between 15:18 hours and 15:38 hours. I am able to state
that what I said during that interview is an accurate account of
During interviews I marked on a plan (labelled as exhibit
D.M.2)the route that I took between my apartment and the Tapas
Bar when checking on my daughter G***e. I have now produce this
plan as my exhibit M.O.1.
This statement is made by myself and is true to the best of my
knowledge and belief.
Signed: M. Oldfield