This information belongs to the Ministério Público in Portimão, Portugal.
It was released to the public on 4 August 2008 in accordance with Portuguese Law


27 to 72?Transcription of witness statement of Carole Tranmer 2008.04.22


04-Cartas Rogatorias Vol 4 Pages 27 - 72
Leicestershire Police Squad Witness Statement:
CJ Act 1967, s.9; MC Act 1980, ss.5'(3) e 5B; Regular Criminal Process 2005, Decision 27.1
Statement of: Ivor MESSIAH
Age if less than 18:

This statement, consisting of one page, signed by me, is true to the best of my knowledge and belief and I make it knowing that, if it is tendered in evidence, I shall be liable to prosecution if I have wilfully states in it anything I know to be false or do not believe to be true.
Date: 15 of May 2008
Signature _________________________________________

I am police detective 1485 with the Leicestershire police and work in the Braunstone police squad in the criminal investigation unit. On Tuesday, the 22nd of April of 2008 I was in the service of the squad between 08h55 and 10h25 of this same day. An interview relevant to witness Carole Tranmer occurred in the interview room. The interview was recorded on DVD and appended as evidence (IM/28') together with a copy of the DVD (IM/28B). Appended also is the transcription of this same interview as evidence (IM/28).

During the interview, Carole TRANMER provided the following evidence:
CT/10 ' Outline of Ocean Club apartment block
CT/11 ' Outline of the Ocean Club in Praia da Luz
CT/12 ' A photograph taken from the terrace of apartment 5G on Sunday, the 29th of April, 2007
At 11h10 of this same day I collected three pieces of evidence from Carole Tranmer. This statement was made by me and is truthful in accordance with my belief and understanding.

Leicestershire Police Squad
Witness Statement
CJ Act 1967, s.9; MC Act 1980, ss.5'(3) e 5B; Regular Criminal Criminal 2005, Decision 27.1
Witness statement of: Carole TRANMER
Age is less than 18:

This statement, consisting of one page, signed by me, is true to the best of my knowledge and belief and I make it knowing that, if it is tendered in evidence, I shall be liable to prosecution if I have wilfully states in it anything I know to be false or do not believe to be true.
Date: 22 of April of 2008
Signature _____________________________________________

I am the above referenced person and live at the address previously given to the police by my husband.

On Tuesday the 22nd of April of 2008, I attended the police squadron in Enderby, Leicestershire. I spoke with DC 1485 Messiah.

Between 9h43 and 11h00 he conducted a recorded video interview, during which I drew an outline of the apartment block (evidence CT10) which I visited on Tuesday, the 3rd of May of 2008.

During this interview I presented a map of the Ocean Club in Praia da Luz, and signalled where I visited, subject to what I have already described. This evidence is referenced as CT11.

During this interview, I also showed DC Messiah a photograph taken by my husband on Sunday, the 29th of April, 2007. The photograph shows me on the terrace of my aunt's apartment in the Ocean Club. I am turned towards the crosswalk, but did not, on this occasion, see the subject. This photograph is referenced as evidence CT12. At 11h10 on Tuesday, the 22nd of April of 2008 I handed this evidence to DC Messiah.

This statement was made by me and is truthful according to my belief and understanding.


Leicestershire Police Squad
Formula MG15(T)
Transcribed/Recorded Witness Statement
Person interviewed: Carole TRANMER
Location of interview: Enderby Police Squadron
Date of Interview: 22 of April of 2008
Start time: 09h43
Stop time: 11h10
Agent that conducted the interview: DC 1485 MESSIAH
Other people present:
n': IM28
Page Numbers: 54
Signature of Interviewer:
Agent that produced the documents: Messiah DC1485
Duration of interview: 87 minutes
Recording Ref': IM28A

DC1485'The recording is now live.


DC1485'This interview is being video recorded, it is Tuesday, the 22nd of April, 2008, and the hour on my watch is 9 hours and 40 minutes. I am DC Ivor MESSIAH and I am a detective with the Leicestershire police in the Criminal Investigation unit and would like to ask her to present herself and tell me her name, the date of her birth and her address, please'

CT' name is Carol TRANMER and my date of birth is the first day of 1948 and I live at, humm... (detail removed).

DC1485'Okay, and your occupation, I believe, you are retired'

CT'I am now retired, yes.


DC1485'What was your occupation before retirement'

CT'Humm... Yes, before retirement I worked temporarily for, more or less a year, and before that, I ran an antique business.


CT'I owned it for, humm... four years, and before this I worked as a secretary at Windsor Castle.


CT'For this reason, humm... I worked as an administrative secretary for most of my life.

DC1485'How nice. Did you like what you did'

CT'Yes, very much so, yes.

DC1485'Do you have children'

CT'No, I do not have children.

DC1485'You have no children, therefore, do you live alone with your husband'

CT'Yes, we (inaudible).

DC1485'How long have you been married'

CT'We have been married for 20 years and... humm, have lived together for 23 years in (address removed).

DC1485'In the same location'

CT'In the same house.

DC1485'Same house, yes.


DC1485'You told me that you worked at Windsor Castle'

CT'Windsor Castle.

DC1485'Did you know the Queen'

CT'Yes. I knew her.

DC1485'Personally or'

CT'All, all, yes. The entire family, the whole royal family, yes.

DC1485'How did that happen'

CT'I worked in the Royal Collection and hummm... I was a personal assistant in the royal library and bookstore. I frequently encountered the royal family in private visits. There was also the Easter Court where the entire Buckingham Palace would usually come. Everyone had a very restricted calendar regarding their duties , thus if anything happened to the royal family, if they brought friends of visitors to Windsor, I had the opportunity to meet them and to show them around.

Dc1485'And did you speak to the Queen or Philip'

CT'Mmm, yes, yes.

DC1485'And Diana, did you know Diana'

CT'No, I never knew Diana. She was not there at the time.

DC1485'That must have been lamentable for you.


DC1485'Of not having the opportunity to meet her' Not having the opportunity to meet her is a shame given what happened to her also.

CT'Yes, yes.

CT'Yes, a tragedy, but it was a good experience working there.

DC1485'Great! It is good that you liked it.

CT'Yes, I liked it.

DC1485'The reason for our discussion today, Carole, has to do with the Portuguese investigation regarding the disappearance of Madeleine McCANN on Thursday the 3rd of May of 2007. Essentially, the Portuguese police, or the PJ as they are also known, are leading this investigation and have asked us, the Leicestershire police--because the McCANN family are also from Leicestershire--to be the their link in England to the investigation. Do you understand what we have to do'

CT'Mmm, mmm yes.

DC1485'The reason for speaking to you is obviously the same reason we are speaking to the other people who were in Portugal and who know the McCann family. They are all being questioned and their statements recorded on video, as are you. You are not in the minority'everyone's testimony has proceeded in the same way.

CT'Mmm, mmm.

DC1485'And as I have already mentioned, the reason for this meeting is to produce an interview so that the Portuguese authorities can have all the statements that are needed in order to proceed with the investigation and/or conclude the enquiry. This is their decision and we are merely collaborating with them.

CT'Mmm, mmm.

DC1485'They only want us to speak with you so as to elaborate questions or to our interview technique. Short of this, they are trying to see if there is any existing piece of information that may surface.

CT'Mmm, mmm.

DCc1485'Are you okay'


DC1485'What I am about to ask you Caroline, is to make an introduction, that you tell me a bit about yourself and how you managed or organised your stay in Portugal during the time of the disappearance.

CT'Mmm, good. My aunt, Pamela Fenn, lives in a Luz apartment and we visit her frequently. Our last visit was a result of a birthday gift, if you can call it that. But our trip was in reality to look for a home, as we would like to live there one day. For this reason, we stayed in the eastern Algarve, not in my aunt's house but in a small complex whose name I do not remember.

DC1485'Could it have been Pinhal do Sol'

CT'Yes, that is it.


CT'So, we stayed there. We booked a reservation for only a week, and hummm'on Sunday, we decide to visit my aunt and to take her to lunch. It was at this point that the photographs of our holidays were taken.


CT'After this we spent the rest of our time in the eastern Algarve to look at properties and on Thursday'my birthday was on Tuesday'we decided to take my aunt to lunch before our return the next Saturday. The incident happened on Thursday.

DC1485'Yes. You should continue and explain how everything happened.

CT'Yes, I will describe it; I will describe everything, everything that I can.

CT'We were all seated on the terrace, hummm'talking, and I was inclined to look below and this is when I saw someone leave the apartment of the first floor, closing the gate very gently as they were leaving, opening and closing the gate with much caution and in silence. It appeared to me very strange. They looked to one side and the other, shut the gate and walked very quickly downwards. It was at this point that I turned to my aunt and my husband and exclaimed 'That was really very strange', but they were talking and very involved in the conversation (inaudible). I became involved in the conversation and did not think anymore about the incident. We left when it was around 6h30, after having finished eating and doing other things, and on Friday we passed by car, continuing to look at properties and such. We did not visit any estate agents, and on Saturday we left. We got to the airport and heard people talking about a missing child. This did not yet bring anything back and we commented on the horror.

CT'After arriving home, Sunday morning we woke and read the Times Sunday paper. There we saw my aunt's apartment and the notice about the missing child. I did not want to believe it and for this reason telephoned her and said: 'Did you see'' to which she responded 'It was been an inferno, terrible since both of you left'. After this I spoke with my cousin, whose son is at Sandhurst and told her 'What do you think we should do, do you think'' because at this time I remembered that I had seen something. It did not come to me right away but afterwards I told my husband 'Well, I saw that funny situation, you know'that type of behavior of the individual, with a sneaky aspect' to which he responded, 'Well you should talk to the police', and I said 'Yes, but it is likely that it has nothing to do with it'. After, we thought a bit more about it and I telephoned my cousin who is at Sandhurst and he told me that I should call the police and tell them. I did exactly this. I telephoned the Windsor police and told them, more or less, what I had told him and to my family. They told me that they would give me a number to call the Leicester police. We passed by the Windsor squadron but it is clear that no one was there so I called the Leciester police and told them basically what I had seen. They told me, well'thank you, we are going to get in touch with you, and after that everything happened. This is what happened, more or less.

CT'Thus, this was when I called them, that is when you, sir, called me.


CT'After that, you booked a meeting time so that someone could come and speak with me


CT'And I was working temporarily (inaudible) for the Royal Borough of Maidenhead.

DC1485'Did they visit you at work'

CT'Yes, they came to the office as they asked me what would be easier and I told them that it would be easier if they could come to me so that I would not miss too much work and'


CT'Then, I arranged a room and they came to visit.



DC1485'Were they at all unaccommodating'


DC1485'The fact that they came to visit you.

CT'No, no, truthfully, I am only trying to help.


CT'An after having spoken to them, I received a call from someone in Reading asking me to help in trying to create what they called an 'identi-kit'.


CT'They asked me 'if it was possible' and I responded 'yes, of course' and they came from Reading. I reserved another room for them and it was in this way that everything happened, and'

DC1485'Okay Carole. I have read your statement from the 8th of May, 2007, more or less one week after you saw the individual. It would be easier if you read the statement yourself and tell me if there is anything you want to add.


DC1485'I would like to analyse a few parts of your statement with you, if you allow me, and to stimulate your memory to see if you remember anything else in relation to your stay.

CT'Mmm, mmm.

DC1485'I would like to clarify in your statement'-your statement 'On the 28th of May, 2008'my husband and I, Chris TRANMER, caught a flight to Portugal to spend a week of holidays in the eastern Algarve' and in addition, to look for properties to buy. 'We stayed in a location called'"

Dc1485'Quarteira, is that so'

CT'I believe so.


CT'That is it, Quarteira, Quarteira.

DC1485'Quarteira, in a zone called (inaudible).

CT'(inaudible) mmm, mmm.

CT''We rented a vehicle to travel. My aunt lives in apartment 20, Waterside Gardens, Praia da Luz, Bloco 5G in the Ocean Club. We went to visit her on Sunday, the 29th of May'. Is this wrong'

CT'No, it is not correct. We arrived on Saturday,

DC1485'Well then, it was after, after the disappearance of Madeleine. Was it not'

CT'No, no because this, humm... was in April, it was the 1st of May, Tuesday.


CT'We arrived more or less in the end of April.


CT'Therefore, it was... my birthday was on the 1st, Tuesday, and Thursday was the 1st of May.


CT'Thus, we arrived the Saturday before.

DC1485'Let me show you what you said, where I want to arrive, ma'am, you returned to Portugal after the disappearance of Madeleine'


DC1485'So that date is incorrect'

CT'Yes. It was in fact in April.

DC1485'April, this is it then'

CT'Yes, I should have read this.


CT'Or no, I don't know.

DC1485'It says here, Saturday, the 28th of May.

CT'It was the 28th of April because it was on the 3rd, Thursday, when we took my aunt to lunch.

CT'Yes and after we went to visit her on Sunday. We visited her on the 29th of April.

DC1485'And here it says May, thus this statement is incorrect, right'

CT'Yes of course.

DC1485'Good. Let us clarify the statement collected on the 8th of May, relative to the dates referred to.

CT'Yes, it was wrong, it was in April.

DC1485'In fact it should be Saturday, the 28th of April.


DC1485'This is correct, of course it was.

CT'I got confused when I read this.

DC1485'Yes, I would also get confused.

DC1485'Good, then in relation to the date, everything is now correct'

CT'Yes, yes.

DC1485'Yes, good. Relative to what you said happened on Thursday, your statement states that Thursday, the 3rd, you went to visit your aunt. Therefore, you saw her on Sunday'


DC1485'And after that you went in search of properties'


DC1485'Passing through the eastern Algarve, right'

CT'That is correct, yes.

DC1485'Thursday, the 3rd of May.

CT'May, mmm, mmm.

DC1485'You returned to your aunt in Praia. Now tell me from where you were coming and tell me about that day.

CT'We, we were lodged in Quarteira.


CT'On this day, that morning, we left towards Luz but we took a bit of time, not much, much time. I do not remember now but it was about an hour or so because we were in the eastern part and she lives in the barlavento region of the Algarve.


CT'We drove from there until Luz where my aunt lived, humm...I don't remember but I believe that we also went shopping for her before our lunch and we had coffee when we arrived, humm... It should have been 11 or around noon when we arrived, humm... after we went to pick her up. We met up, drank a coffee on the terrace and after went out to lunch in Lagos, which is humm... in the old part of the city. There is a restaurant there whose specialty is fish and she really wanted to go there. We returned around 3:30, sat on the terrace, had a coffee and stayed in the apartment until around 6:30 and left around 6:30 that same day.

DC1485'This was on Sunday, right'

CT'No, this was on Thursday.

DC1485'This on Thursday, I understand.

CT'This all happened on Thursday.


CT'We left around 6:30. It was already dusk because at that time of the year, it gets dark quickly in Portugal. We drove to our hotel and arrived at 8:30, eight or 8:30.

DC1485'It was a two hour trip then'

CT'It was about that, mmm, yes, it was a considerable distance.

DC1485'Speak to me about the apartment where your aunt lives.

CT'Sure (inaud'le)

DC1485'It is obviously called, given its location, the Ocean Club, right'

CT'It is in the Ocean Club, but she...

DC1485'How long has she been there, in that apartment'

CT'When my uncle died, they had a villa close to Lagos, but when he died of Alzheimer's, she sold it to buy the site in Luz. She bought it because it was surrounded by people and it was easy for her to come and go as she did not want a big site. She bought it in 2003'since 2003 and it is the second or third floor, I am never certain, but I believe that there is one more apartment

DC1485'ground floor... ground floor, first floor'

CT'No, she is the third, I believe that she is on the third floor.

DC1485'Third floor.

CT'There is only one on top, therefore, she is on the third floor, at the end apartment. Once there, you take the elevator or the stairs. There is no other entrance or exit. You go directly to her door. She lives at the end. There is no other access.

DC1485'Therefore, when one leaves the elevator, to which side does one walk, left or right'

CT'You turn left.


CT'You walk, as it is a long corridor. It is open at the back part, it is an open corridor open in such a way one can see the front because the back part, if you can call that part which is turned toward the pool, but the front part of the building, is in truth the back of the same. Does this make sense'

DC1485'Yes, that makes sense.

CT'Because this is the entry, the only entry point and exit point, after this there is only the veranda and the terrace and nothing more. It has been there since 2003.

DC1485'And when you enter, give me a description of the apartment.

CT'I will describe what one sees when entering. Well, when one enters there is a small entrance hall where you find her room and the living area. After, there is one more room on the opposite side of the small veranda. It is not really a veranda but a passage where one can walk; there is a window and an entrance door. This window is normally covered by a closed blind because it is the guest room; after that is a front door in such a position'the window is there and the door and when one enters there is an access door to the to the guest room and after, her room, which is at the edge of the building.


CT'One passes through there and there is a bathroom and through the entrance hall there is a guest room, a kitchen and an eating area. After the living area, there is a big open terrace'where we would usually go. It is completely open.

DC1485'When you are on the terrace, to which direction are you turned'

CT'We are turned to a beautiful view of the ocean and all the clay roofs of the village, where one can see the pool, the reception area, the pool zone, the tennis courts, and one could see the roof of the Tapas bar. There are trees and bushes between all of this, so when one looks out, there are only roof tops, the small homes and other villas. It is an incredible view.

DC1485'Who else lives there'

CT' Actually, she is the only resident, which may seem strange but she wants to be there. So she is the only resident. All the other owners, the majority of them, more or less, are people who acquired the apartments and rent them or else use them only for holidays. For this reason, there are times in the year when she is alone.

DC1485'And who else lives with her'

CT' She is completely alone.


CT' No one else.

DC1485'So, in addition to your visit...'

CT' When we visit or stay in the apartment with her, we do not take advantage of her because she is an older woman; she is eighty-something and as you know, it is not big enough for us to stay there with her.


CT' We always stay somewhere else, local. It is easier for her.


CT' And she does not have to worry about us and with the family. She has many relatives who visit and normally they all stay...

DC1485'Somewhere else.

CT' Unless it is just for a weekend or something similar.


CT' Normally, because it is a lot of work and you know, she is arthtritic and these things; well, we prefer to stay somewhere else close to her.

DC1485'And you can confirm that it is block 5G'

CT'5G yes.

DC1485'And the name of, and the number of the apartment, 5G'

CT' No, the apartment is the twentieth.

DC1485'Apartment 20.

CT' Apartment 20.

DC1485'Waterside Gardens'

CT' Yes. Waterside Gardens, yes.

DC1485'Very good. When you look outside, as you mentioned a while ago, when you spoke of the view at which you were turned when you enter the terrace, tell me, what do you see below that area'

CT' Well, below, if you look right down, there is a street which leads to the supermarket which is at the end of a small' I call it an alley' a long passageway in front of all of the verandas that look towards the pool. There is a hedge which lines the small gates which gave access to the ground-floor apartments and it was through one of these small gates that I saw this person leave.

DC1485'Very good.

CT' And it was here from where he left. After this, he looked to this side and left quickly and disappeared in that direction. That brought him along the street leading up to the supermarket, or up until the top of the hill ahead. I do not know which direction he took (inaudible).

DC1485'Okay. And did you see anyone else; you know what day it was; the day you were there, on Thursday. Do you know if there were more tourists in that block of apartments'

CT' No, that is to say, there were more people in the pool zone. There were more people around. I believe that it may be possible some were swimming, or even playing tennis. I cannot remember.

DC1485'Was there anyone who called your attention' Think, think well about the location and where you were on this day.

CT' On that day'

DC1485'Besides the individual, obviously.

CT' Besides him...


CT' No one comes to mind. The one thing that I do remember is that some celebration was going on, but I don't know if it was the Sunday or the Thursday. There was some celebration, next to the pool. I do not know if it was the families, the guests of the complex, but there was something. The only thing I can say is that it could have been Sunday or Thursday. I cannot remember and for this reason I would like to leave out this detail.

DC1485'When you speak of a celebration' was it was a barbeque or a bunch of people in good moods'

CT' Well, it appeared to be a celebration, you know, with all the people in good moods and a lot of noise' not much noise but people were laughing and I do not know if this was on Sunday or Thursday.


CT' This detail I will not mention since I am not certain if it was Sunday or Thursday. Yes, and I don't want to confuse my recollection with this.


CT' Mmm, but I believe that there is nothing more. I cannot remember anything more about anyone; nothing more about this.

DC1485'When you were there, did you visit the supermarket'

CT' Humm... I am not certain if I went there that morning. I believe that is possible my husband passed by there to pick up something for mu aunt. Me, no. It could have been Sunday' as you can see once again I am uncertain, I am sorry I cannot remember.

DC1485'Try to position yourself during the second visit; given what happened on Thursday, think about the hour you arrived. Think about whether someone welcomed you when you exited the car. Ok'

CT' Mmm.

DC1485'On Thursday.

CT' Well, we arrived and went directly to the apartment. My husband thinks that he noticed something. I think that we went to the supermarket on the street to the restaurant to see if' to find blubs for the light fixture. This was before lunch. We looked around the supermarket for these special bulbs for her. He could have gone alone or' I do not know. I did not go but it is possible he went, but no'I cannot remember. We got together and had coffee and after went out for lunch. It had to around noon or something similar but it was probably noon because we wanted to get to the restaurant around this time as it fills quickly and is well known and frequented by locals. They only serve fish, fish, fish, but she adores it. For this reason we had to arrive early before the other people' around noon.


CT'Well we must have left home around 11h00 to 11h30'mmm'

DC1485'And did you go on foot or by car'

CT'No, we had to drive there.

DC1485'How long did the journey take'

CT'Hum, it was not very long'it is in Lagos.

DC1485'It is in Lagos.

CT'Yes, from Luz to Lagos.


CT'It must have been about 15 minutes.

DC1485'Okay. What was the restaurant called'

CT'Well, I do not remember the name (inaud'le) or something like that. It is located in the old part of the city and one goes climbing until the top (inaudible) yes. 'Esquitera' or something like that. I don't remember its proper name.

DC1485'It is a restaurant that serves fish'

CT'It is a restaurant that serves fish. It is very well known.

DC1485'On top of the hill'

CT'But it is not a tourist location; it is more for local people, more or less, but it is the best, mmm, and it is not refined. The tables are made of wood with oilcloth and the fish, you know... it is wonderful.


CT'But I cannot remember the name it is (inaudible) or something like that.


DC1485'Did you go to the Tapas Bar with your aunt'

CT'No, no, no it was not there when I visited the last time, and it is something very recent; I believe that it was built about a year ago and I was there before the Tapas Bar was constructed. I think it was a part of the reception or something similar. We were not there before. It is very new.

DC1485'And the courts, did you visit the tennis courts'

CT'No, we do not play tennis and we did not swim in the pool.

DC1485'You did not use the pool'


DC1485'And the cr'he'did you go to the cr'he zone where the children were'

CT'No, I would not go to the cr'he as there was no reason to.

DC1485'Okay. How many times were you there exactly'

CT'Hum... in Portugal or in Luz'

DC1485'Okay, in this resort'

CT'A few times, perhaps three; the first time was when my aunt moved in 2003 or 2004 and after that for a week. My brother dies in 2003 and I remember that my uncle, Aunt Pamela's husband, died in June of 2003. As there were four deaths in our family in the first four months of that year, the time of her move has stayed in my memory.


CT'And, she was very upset with all of it, and I was trying to help her cope along with dealing with my twin brother's death. For this reason, I went to visit her for a week in February in 2004. It was my first time in that place but we had already been in Luz before that when we went to Portugal as tourists. After that, we went a second time with my husband and stayed in (inaudible) a small fishing village about 10 minutes from Luz. We have already been in Portugal many times, but to visit Luz only three times.

DC1485'Okay. When you were there how was the temperature'

CT'It was good, sunny and hot. At times it was necessary to use a sweater but during the day it was marvellous. Besides this, it was fresh and but very agreeable.

CT'I believe it rained one day; it was a bit windy, besides this... it was wonderful weather ' not for sun bathing, even though there were people doing just this but it was not really sun bathing weather.

DC1485'The (inaudible) people. What I will do next Carole, is to show you a part of a map, okay, and I will ask you to outline some parts as well.



CT'Oh my God.

DC1485'You spoke, you spoke of, of, of another man you saw.


DC1485'You saw him leaving your aunt's terrace'

CT'Mmm, mmm

DC1485'This, this is a map, it only covers the Luz area and he have here, if you can imagine, or even see exactly, the block of apartments.

CT'Mmm, mmm.

DC1485'And here is the pool.


DC1485'Here is the Tapas Bar and restaurant.


DC1485'Here is the tennis court.

CT'Mmm, mmm.

DC1485'Right here.

DC1485'This is rua estreita.

CT'That is rua estreita.

DC1485'The passageway, right.

DC1485'Point me to the direction from which the individual came.

CT'Mmm, mmm.

DC1485'And if you could show me in the way a camera captures an image. From, from which apartment did he leave and to where did he go and where were you'

CT'In my aunt's, in the apartment of my aunt in the corner to the top.


DC1485'Look to the bottom where you were looking, if you want. You were looking to the bottom to the right and downwards, but this is not towards the lower apartment but is actually slightly to the right and there is her veranda and finally, here on top, for I would say that here there is a small gate'for this reason it was not this apartment in the end, that is what I wanted to say, you know'

CT'It was not the last one, yes, it was not exactly the last of the street.

DC1485'No, it was not the first gate.

CT'Of the interior.

CT'Where, if you have access.


CT'From there, there is a gate. It was not this gate, it was'when you leave the rua estreita, is it the very first gate you see.

DC1485'How many gates are there in total'

CT'I think that all of them have small gates.

DC1485'I am looking.

CT'Yes, as I recall or think, but I believe they are for all people. I am not certain because I never saw the lower apartments having access to the others, no. For this reason, he was leaving and after looked from side to side and continued walking on the street. I did not see in which direction he left, and it is here that I think I saw him, but it is not possible for someone to leave from this gate.


CT'Or perhaps it is here from which the people or'perhaps I did not notice that there was another small gate.

DC1485'Oh, I am seeing it.

CT'I thought that there was only this gate.

DC1485'Thus, here lies the confusion' to clarify things.


DC1485'It is not exactly the principal gate because, as you noted, the ultimate apartment is where the McCann's were lodged.

CT'Well I did not know. As you know I was on the top.


CT'And so it is clear, it was not this apartment from which I was looking.

DC1485'Your aunt's apartment is exactly on top'

CT'Yes, it is directly on top.

DC1485'But it is two floors up'

CT'It is the last one, yes.


CT'Well then, I was looking to the first gate at the end of the alley.

DC1485'Yes, yes.

CT'It was there that I saw the person leave.

DC1485'Okay, and your direction was this way, following the passageway or to the other direction towards the shrubs'

CT'No, it was towards the gate.

DC1485'In the inside.

CT'Yes, because humm... it must be, there are shrubs and there is no gate there.


CT'As far as I know.

DC1485'Okay, yes.

CT'I did not, I do not remember any gates. I believe that you have to go up and around, or to go through a different passage, or something like this.


CT'I was never exactly in the area below but I do know that it was this locale, humm... and I told my husband, I should tell him this. I had no idea that it was this was the apartment they stayed. I only knew that which I saw and I was not wasting time. (inaudible)

DC1485'No, not in any way. We only want to clarify everything.

CT'It is only that gate, that is the only one.

DC1485'Would you mind making me an outline, please'


DC1485'If you would, if you make it, if you could make the same one as this block here.


DC1485'And after, please mark an X in the location where you saw this man leaving.


DC1485'And after where, where is the gate in relation to the area from where he left.

CT'So, here is the block, okay, then the veranda of my aunt and here on top.


CT'I am looking forward, here in the bottom is a small gate and here is the rua estreita. There is the rua estreita and there are shrubs here and here, the small gates, they are all like this and you climb some steps or can enter from the right, I believe, to enter the apartment. Thus I am looking more or less upwards to downwards and he left from here' the first gate you reach. I did not know of this one here, I did not know of this one.

DC1485'Ah ah.

CT'What I know is that this is the gate and this is what I thought.

DC1485'And can you tell me if he came out of an apartment or was simply exiting the complex'

CT'He was leaving, he was exiting.

DC1485'From an apartment'

CT'I did not see him leave an apartment. I only saw him leave from the gate.

DC1485'Did the gate give direct access to the apartment'

CT'But he was, yes... mmm... no, not at the last apartment.


CT'I suppose there is another apartment.

DC1485'Okay. I am seeing it.

CT' According to what I saw below, it happened here, it could have been the last apartment.

DC1485'In your opinion, is it possible that he was leaving his apartment, next to the last apartment'

CT'Mmm, mmm.

DC1485'This, this is just to say'

CT'Probably, oh it is right to say this because I would hate to state that he was; he may not have been leaving because that past one was a different entrance.

Dc1485'Yes, okay.

CT'A different entrance as a whole, the site closest to that row, the first door must have been next to the stairs.

DC1485'Yes and after you saw him leave, what happened'

CT'Well, he opened the gate from inside and made so he did not make any noise, I only'it was what made me feel strange about it. He did this all very quietly, as if... you know, when a gate creeks, but he ensured that it did not make noise, it could have been (inaudible)

DC1485'With caution'

CT'Yes, simply ensuring that it did not bang, and I know some people who enter without banging the doorafter they enter, so this was very cautious, very careful, and for this reason, only this reason, I called you.


CT'It looked as though he was leaving, he closed it with both his hands, many times, closing it in silence and cautiously with both hands and he looked lastly this way downwards, first to this side.

DC1485'So what you are saying is that he looked first in your direction' He looked to you, but he was not positioned. This way


DC1485'Then he looked to the left.

CT'Oh I see.

DC1485'And after he cautiously and slowly pushed it and afterwards looked to the right, and continued walking.

CT'And he'the direction he took was to the street.

DC1485'He then went in this direction to the street, here, this street.


DC1485'Along here in this direction towards the supermarket.

CT'Yes. But I do not know if he went in that direction or in this direction.


CT'Walking this way upwards and I then turned to my aunt and my husband.

DC1485'Then on your map, where do you believe you saw him for the last time'

CT'At the exterior of the gate. He was closing it.


CT'And moving there in an upwards direction.

DC1485'Yes, then, the last location at which you saw him, he would have been, would it be possible that the last time you saw him, he was passing the apartments in direction of the street'

CT'No, I only saw him walking and I did not see him on the rua estreita for when I turned to speak with my family, he was, he was probably always at the the top of the street, and.

DC1485'Okay. I am not here to put words in your mouth, or ideas in your head Carole, but it is possible that the last time you saw him he was only passing through, as I have already indicated from the location of the McCann apartment. The last time you saw him was passing by the McCann apartment then'

CT'Possibly, possibly, yes, I only know that I did not see him turn to the right or the left. I did not look more after he passed the gate. I only know the direction in which he went. He simply went in this direction, in that direction.

DC1485'Then Mrs. Tranmer, what happened first, did you lose sight of him or did he disappear from your line if sight'

CT'No, I lost sight of him.

DC1485'So you turned'

CT'I simply turned away.

DC1485'You turned'


DC1485'With your back to him'


DC1485'Then before you turned, he was still visible'

CT'He was still visible.

DC1485'And you as well.

CT'When I turned, it was obvious he was heading somewhere. I only know that he was headed in that direction.

DC1485'Very good, okay.

CT'Then, I turned like this and he disappeared.

DC1485'This is great, it is great, it is clear, okay. I am going to now try to ask a serues of questions that the Portuguese police would like to ask you, okay'

CT'Mmm, mmm.

DC1485'Perhaps you have already answered before but what I want you to do, it to respond with as much detail possible. Good, the first questions is ' do you attest to you statement given to the British police in May of two thousand'eight of may of 2007. Do you attest to the statement that was made on this day to the police, the same statement that I showed you on the 8th of May'


DC1485'This statement is yours'


DC1485'I will only, it is not necessary to read, but I am going to show you as it is necessary to confirm your statement and that it is your statement.

CT'It appears to be, yes.



DC1485'Okay, thank you, and the only anomaly is the incorrect date.

CT'The date, the date is definitely wrong.


CT'We had arrived on the 28th or the 29th of...


CT'April, yes. It was in April and not in May.

DC1485'Well, I am going to help you refresh your memory anew and back to when this individual appeared.


DC1485'You have already stated that is was on Thursday because this was the day you visited your aunt.

CT'Mmm, mmm.

DC1485'And at what time, I need to come to a definitive time with the hours.

CT'Okay, mmm, mmm.

DC1485'What do you think, it was not after the... and it was not before the'

CT'No it was not late.

DC1485'I assume that I was there, I was there between...we were there around 11, 10 or 11. We took my aunt, we must have left around 11h30, a quarter to noon, and in order to go to the restaurant. Now it may have been a bit early. We had a coffee before we left and really strange to me is the feeling that it could have happened then'I feel that it was when we returned and were drinking coffee.

DC1485'Then you mentioned previously, you said before that you left around 6h30.

CT'Yes, we left.

DC1485'So, let us recap.


DC1485'How much time.

CT'We were there around, we returned from lunch around 3h00 or 3h30, and we were there from 3h30 until 6h30. I know that it was 6h30.

DC1485'Then for a total of three hours, and there were (inaudible) for three hours, yes'

CT'It was minimum of three hours, yes, because we were talking and I had the sensation that we were longer than in the morning, and therefore, it was in these three hours when I saw him and was looking from the veranda. I know that it will look horrible because it will only confuse everyone, but if I were to state that it occurred during the morning. I am still not sure it was the morning or the afternoon. I only know that we were together on the terrace.


CT'But the truth is that I cannot. I am trying my hardest to tell you if it was morning or evening.

DC1485'Good, you left around 8h30, sorry, 6h30.

CT'Yes, we left.
Cartas Rogatorias
Vol 4
Pages 27 - 72


DC1485'What time before this did you see the individual'

CT'It must have happened, I do not want to guess, I was during the time we were on the terrace, between three and three-thirty until six, when we returned to the apartment, five-thirty or six because it was cooling down, thus, it was in the afternoon, and I hate to do this, excuse me but it was on'

DC1485'It does not matter that you are trying to guess, it does not matter that you guess.

CT'If it was in the afternoon, somewhere three, three-thirty and five-thirty, because the sun was going down and it was getting colder.


CT'Well, I am certain that we were on the terrace between 3:00/3:30 until 5:30 on Thursday afternoon.

DC1485'Well, we have already been at this for one hour and have made good progress. We are moving along very well. It is very difficult.

CT'Yes it is.

DC1483'I know.

DC1485'You were there two hours.


DC1485'3:30 to 5:30.

CT'Yes and if this did occur in the morning, okay, it would be between'we would have gotten there around 11, 10:30 or 11 and left around 11-ish, 11:45.

DC1485'To go to the restaurant.


DC1485'Okay, I think I am happy that you saw this individual in the afternoon.

CT'Yes, I, I have the feeling that it was in the afternoon.


CT'And it is not just because I say so but, because we had spent more time relaxing; they were talking, and we had already eaten lunch and were sitting and relaxing and well, I am nearly certain. But as you know there was that period in the morning.

DC1485'Did anyone visit your apartment'

CT'When we were there' No, no.

DC1485'No, okay.

CT'I am sorry that'

DC1485'So our window is between'

CT'3, 3:30.


CT'Until 5:30.

DC1485'And if I were to give you hints, because you could ask yourself this, was it at the beginning of your stay, close to 3:30'

CT'Definitive at the beginning because there was a lot of light, yes.

DC1485'More, more than 5:30'

CT'Yes, yes.

DC1485'Well think, think about the possibility of 3:30, would you say 4:30'

CT'4:30, yes.

DC1485'Well, given the window of between 3:30 and 4:30'

CT'Yes. I suppose so. It is only a guess.

DC1485'Yes, it is great, yes, yes.


DC1485'Okay, and you told me that you were on your aunt's terrace'

CT'Mmm, mmm.

DC1485'Okay, and what is there on the terrace'

CT'Well, there is a table, a sun umbrella, some chairs and potted plants and very little else; a part of the terrace is bigger than the other with the end part longer, more or less. The part where we sat was covered and has a big enough space for six people to sit, but I, I know that I was standing on the veranda when I looked down. I was not looking in this way, I was only snooping to see what was going on below. It was simply a look as follows, for this reason, I was looking below and was not properly'I cannot, I could not see very well.

DC1485'Then it was not a specific look below, we will call it a glance.

CT'Yes, yes, it is very difficult to see below. One only had a general view.

DC1485'Then was it necessary to look more furtively'


DC1485'Okay, your path was like this, when you were in the apartment and walked out, can you see the direction on the terrace.

CT'Mmm, mmm.

DC1485'How much time to get there from you room'

CT'Hum... we can there with a few steps.


CT'So, it is visible if we are seated on''

DC1485'From the door or from where'

CT'From, humm... the door no because he was looking more from the side.


DC1485'So leaving the apartment one must get up but if one is seated on the terrace.


DC1485'And if sitting next to the terrace wall.



DC1485'Can you see, is it possible for people to pass through the top and below'

CT'You can see this outside.

DC1485'Absolutely, yes.

CT'Absolutely, yes.

DC1485'Very good, sure.

CT'People would come and go.

DC1485'I can see.

CT'So you can see what is happening at the top of and at the bottom of the street.

DC1485'Okay. To jog your memory to remember the topic of conversation, I mean, you confirmed that the individual called your attention but after that you turned to speak with your husband. Can you remember what you said to your husband'

CT'Well, there are always talking about the European Union, for this reason, they always have discussions about who is a member of the European Union and who is leading; these two talk a lot about politics and speak, speak and after I turned to get into the conversation as well.

CT'Because they always have open discussions, nice discussions but ...

DC1485'Nothing that comes to memory'

CT'Well, you know'he works, he is contracted by the European Union and is always saying that when he leaves working for them, he has a big book to write, yes'

DC1485'Was this individual accompanied by anyone'

CT'No, he was alone.

DC1485'Okay, the next thing is the description, this will be difficult for you, I know, but try and remember as much as possible even if they are details that may appear... ohh. Assume that I know nothing.

CT'Mmm, mmm.



DC1485'Presuppose that I have just entered this investigation, that I do not know about your previous statement; that I know nothing about this individual.


DC1485'Where should we start.

CT'At the head.

DC1485'the head.

CT'Because it was what I saw first.


CT'Humm... he was blonde, with a lot of hair, very short, not like mine but a little more, humm... but not like a footballer, do you know what I mean' A style close to shaven. Very short, blonde, the head was very sculptured. The shape of the head was very sculptured, more oval shaped.


CT'And, humm... then I believe I saw him wearing a blue-grey T-shirt, it was not dark blue, more of a pallid colour and it was, humm... a type of blue with short sleeves, humm... but I did not see anything below, I did not see the trousers or shoes or anything else, only the top part and he would have, I would say'humm, when looking from above, he was not short, I would say he was about a 1'78, about medium height. He was not thing nor was he muscular. So he was of average stature. I would say he was European but not Portuguese. He was not dark and, he was not short, but I would say that he looked Scandinavian if you will, because he was very light and could have been British or Scandinavian. Even though I was looking upwards, he had big eyes, there is nothing else. He did not have tattoos, nothing like this, humm'a person of common appearance, it was his furtiveness that called my attention, humm, no, I can't'

DC1485'Could you give him an age'

CT'Yes, I believe so, I would say that he was between, oh he was not old, 30 to 35, I don't believe that he was older than this.

DC1485'And his aspect'

CT'It was clear, he was light-skinned, he had no freckles, he was not sunburned, he was not dark, nor bronzed from the sun, he was a light colour, not white, white but you know'humm..he was not one who was exposed to the sun.

DC1485'And when he walked, did he have any particular walk or limp'

CT'No, I never really noticed his gait as I only saw him leave the gate. He did not appear incapacitated, hum' he was merely ordinary looking, I did not really look at his walk.

DC1485'You told me he did not have tattoos; was he wearing any jewellery'

CT'No, I did not see any jewellery, no, no he did not have necklaces or rings and as far as I could tell, he did not have earrings.

DC1485'And his T-shirt, you spoke to me about his T-shirt, did it have an inscription'

CT'No, it was a common shirt, without inscriptions, it was light blue in colour, or grey, it could have been grey, mmm.

DC1485'And the T-shirt, did it have buttons or was it simply something that went up to the neck'

CT'No, it went up to the neck and had sleeves, short sleeves, but not straps, of this type, just short sleeves.

DC1485'Yes, and was it loose-fitting'

CT'No it was not snug, it was not loose, it was comfortable.

DC1485'Did it fit him loosely'

CT'It was big but not by much.


CT'It was simply common, the type of T-shirt one wears on Saturday.

DC1485'Yes, yes.

CT'With inscriptions or anything in general, mmm.

DC'And he was well-shaven'

CT'Yes, yes.

DC1485'Yes without a beard or did you notice anything else'

CT'No, nothing from what I remember, because he was very blonde.


CT'But if he had a beard, I would have seen it.


CT'No, he did not have sunglasses, nor did he wear spectacles.

DC1485'He did not use sunglasses'


DC1485'Okay, and for how long did you think you saw him'

CT'Well, humm... the time it takes to leave, shut the gate, look to the side, look to that side, a few seconds because he did not take very long to do this, I would say that it was for a minute or something like that.

DC1485'And I know that you pointed to the map, as you know, that you were on the third floor and he was here, this is, rua estreita, as you revelead'

CT'No, no it appears, humm... it is simply long, because the apartments on the first level jut out a bit, the veranda belongs to my aunt.


CT'Therefore, when I say that I am looking below, it is only really looking below...

DC1485'And how, what is your opinion; are you good at measuring distances'

CT'If am am good in measuring distances, recollecting faces, mmm'very good. Are you talking measurements in metres, yards or in feet'

DC1485'Humm, in feet.

DC1485'Please continue.

CT'From where, where I stood'


CT'Okay, I would then say, humm, close to the roof.


CT'It would be the measurement of one double-decker bus which, which is the measurement of a double-decker bus.

DC1485'You refer to the top of the double-decker, the double-decker until the end'

CT'Yes, yes.

DC1485'I though you said that you were capable of being precise.

CT'Well, it is difficult, isn't it'

DC1485'Have you looked here to outside'


DC1485'Is it roughly the same height'

CT'Humm, yes, but two, two floors up.


CT'Two floors and a bit upwards.

DC1485'Are the apartments have high ceilings or low-ceilings'

CT'Humm, no... they are higher than this.

DC1485'They are higher than this.

CT'Yes, yes.

DC1485'Or it could be, we are speaking, if I told you 30 metres, twenty meters, thirty metres, 40 metres, which do uou think it would be'

DC1485'Feet and inches

CT'Ahh... feet, if I told you, then, I would from top to bottom it was about' I don't know, 20 feet.

DC1485'Yes, because there we were also on the top of a hill.


CT'Thus 20, 30 feet for sure, I would that it was around this.


CT'Because we were also on a hill. But on the rua estreita I don't think there is a relief.



DC1485'And the temperature, you told me that the temperature was cold but it was sunny on this day or were you covered.

CT'It was sunny, but... humm... it cooled down at night, hummm, I believe it was sunny, mmm.

DC1485'It seems to me that you would recognise this individual were you to see him again'

CT'Yes, I would recognize him. Don't ask me why but I know that I would.

DC1485'Okay, and you told me, when we were speaking of his behaviour, you told me that he left and shut the gate very slowly after himself, that he had to turn. With both his hands.

CT'With both hands.

DC1485'He turned and pulled the gate, he pulled or pushed the gate closed'

CT'Humm... he pulled it.

DC1485'Because it opens from the inside'

CT'It opens from the inside.

DC1485'Yes, then when you saw him leave, he had to pull the gate in his direction.


DC1485'Okay, and you told me that he was doing this stealthily, what do you mean by stealthily'

CT'Stealth, humm... someone who would draw my attention, you know, the normal way of entering and exiting a gate, one opens the gate and just leaves, but he did this as though he wanted to make the minimum amount of noise, that is stealthily, and as if, he did not want anyone to know that he was coming or going.


CT'This was very, very unusual and it was this that stayed in my memory.

DC1485'This was the photo-sketch that you reproduced'

CT'No, he did not use spectacles, but he did have this type of hair.

DC1485'Yes, I was intrigued that the reason for his sunglasses.

CT'He did not have sunglasses, he did not use spectacles and his mouth was not like this, and his nose was not like this, it is not the same person.

DC1485'Then you are telling me that this is not the photo-fit that you made'



CT'Because he has glasses, he did not use glasses.

Dc1485'No, but the hair is the same'

CT'The hair is right. More or less.

DC1485'I know that the image is not very good.

CT'And it appears that he has something on his chin that he did not have, humm, but the format is similar, he certainly did not use glasses, and his mouth was different.

DC1485'Okay, but the top of his...

CT'The top, his head is...

DC1485'The same.


DC1485'The format of the face is the same, the format of the mouth is the same'

CT'Well, he had a long face.


CT'Yes, this, this you know.

DC1485'But this is not it, this is not your photo-sketch.

CT'No, certainly it is not.

DC1485'No, it is not... okay. And the name Tasmin.

CT'Is this what they sent'


CT'This I made'

DC1485'Well, do you remember the name of the person who made the photo with you'

CT'No, a young person, humm...


CT'Yes, male, a young man, hummm.

DC1485'Tasmin, does that have any significance for you'



CT'From Reading.

DC1485'Yes, from Reading.

CT'I signed something, he had a CD and did everything on computer.

DC1485'Okay, sure.

CT'But this, this is not like the one he did.

DC1485'Well, there must be some confusion. I would like to finally ask you regarding your aunt, Pamela FENN.

CT'Pamela FENN, mmm

DC1485'Speak to me about her.

CT'Humm, of what' Her age or her type of lifestyle'

DC1485'Yes... where she used to live, you told me that she moved there in 2003'

CT'No, no ,no, she moved there around a good 20 or 30 years ago.


CT'Together, my aunt and uncle used to live in Stratfield Saye.


CT'Stratfield Saye which is in Berkshire, the border with Surrey and when they sold the house they moved to Portugal. He designed and constructed a villa, not exactly in Lagos, but in the immediate vicinity. They bought the land and lived there happily for many years until he got ill with Alzheimer and for the last 10 years, it was she who took care of him with the exception of the last 18 months when he spent his time in a facility. When he died, she bought this apartment, and she lives their practically alone and the family, as you know, we visit her with frequency and she (sorry) goes many times to the U.K. She has three children, all married who also have children. She therefore has grandchildren, but she likes Portugal, she likes the climate, she is happy there, she has friends, and humm... she would never return here unless she had no choice (inaudible), there is not more to add.

DC1485--So she still has family in England'

CT'Oh yes, the has three married children and many grandchildren.

DC1485'Where do they live'

CT'They'one lives in Sandhurst, he is a colonel and has been stationed in Belgrade for about 4 years, the other lives in Kent and owns a bar, and the other lives in London and is the manager of a marketing business. All of them, the one in Kent has three children, and the other has one child and they, N***is in Camberley and had two children. She had grandchildren. After this is me, I am her nieces and my sister, J*** lives in Guildford. For this reason we are spread out and she comes to spend the holidays and Christmas.

DC1485'Is there anybody in the family called (inaudible), any younger member called FENN'

CT'Yes, all of them. All of them are called FENN. They are all men, for this reason they are all FENN.

DC1485'They are all FENN.

CT'The whole family is called FENN.


CT'A series of FENN, yes

DC1485'And girls'

CT'No, she does not have girls.

DC1485'So there are no girls with the name FENN.

CT'Only by marriage.

DC1485'And the children.

CT'They are all FENNs.

DC1485'They are all FEN'S. What are their names'

CT'Well, there is'H*** and C**** FENN, they are married and have ***** and C***** who lives in Camberley in Sandhurst which is the military base, after there is S***** FENN and his wife N**** who have a daughter named M*****, for this reason, they are all FENNs. After this is I**** FENN who has an older son, no two boys... I am becoming confused, two daughters who are all FENNs and she will have a great-granddaughter this month, sorry, next month.

DC1485'A big family.

CT'Yes, a big family, humm... and her husband, my uncle's family was from Australia, but I believe that this is... mmm

DC1485'Okay. Finally Carole, I would like to go over with you the photos you brought with you, which you showed to me before the interview.

CT'Mmm, mmm

DC1485'Please clarify for me, when these were taken, who took it, and...'

CT'Hum... okay, my husband and aunt hate taking photographs, for this reason he must have taken these, I know that they were taken on Sunday, a lovely sunny day where we were seated, as was usual, on the terrace. There are a number of people there.


CT'There is the pool, there is the overhang, which is not really an overhand but a wall.


CT'A wall with plants from a distance; like a passageway on the pavement which runs until the building.


CT'This is similar to what one can see now, and the reception area with the roof.


CT'And the people between I believe are many who work at the Ocean Club and who also live in the surrounding areas, also in the locale.


CT'That is it.

DC1485'If we select this photograph, I will show it to you, okay'

CT'This must be one of the better ones, If I may say so.

DC1485'This one shows you,

CT'This, this shows me looking down being curious, but this is not of the other apartment.


CT'But below there is, humm...the terrace of the other apartment.

DC1485'Oh, that one... hummm. Where the McCanns stayed.

CT'I did not know, but it must have been, they had a type of patio below, but the one I was looking at, humm... was where the small gate was located which is almost to that side.

DC1485'That is the gate where you saw the individual.

CT'Mmm, mmm

DC1485'Where you stood'

CT'Where I stood.

DC1485'I will (inaudible) see something. Image 50590 okay, that I what I will call it.

CT'Ah ah.

DC1485'Image 0590 is one of your pictures.

CT'Mmm, mmm.

DC1485'And you are looking below.

CT'And I am looking below.

CT'Mmm, mmm.

DC1485'And tell me where is the gate, in realtion ot the rest.

CT'Well, the gate is slightly more towards the front, 69 centimetres towards the front.

DC1485'To your right.

CT'To my right.


CT'Right below where the McCanns stayed there is a small patio.


CT'But I did not see if they had a gate themselves.

CT'Okay. And after there is a small apartment below that has a small terrace and was probably there I was snooping.



DC1485'At what time of the day do you think this photograph was taken'

CT'Well, it was... it must have happened in the morning because it was taken on Sunday.

DC1485'It was taken on Sunday'

CT'Yes, because the sun was out, humm'around mid-day, I would say it was around noon.



DC1485'This is good.

CT'This is all I remember.

DC1485'I will make copies of these photographs, later, after completing your statement.


DC1485'And I have this as your proof and evidence.

CT'You can have these because, humm... they are on CD, and if they can help'

DC1485'Right, okay.

CT'You can have them.

DC1485'I will see what I (inaudible) can do with them.

CT'yes, okay.

DC1485'Okay, I will get up for two minutes and ask my colleague if any fact has escaped me.



CT'Yes, I will have some water.

DC MESSIAH leaves the interview room.

DC MESSIAH returns to the interview room.

DC1485'Hello, I have returned. I apologise for the length of my absence (inaudible), my colleague was trying to get a better quality photograph copy, the one I showed him was very, very light, wasn't it'


DC1485'Does this bring back memories'

CT'Good, the one I saw was on computer...


CT'And... hum, with the glasses... he did not wear sunglasses.

DC1485'No, but if you could imagine him without sunglasses, is it very difficult'

CT'Yes, hum... I know that I have had some difficulty with the ears as well, but... humm, I think so.

DC1485'This was made by another witness, who affirms having seen a man who corresponds to his description but...

CT'The one thing is that I saw him from an angle.

DC1485'From below.

CT'From below, his mouth was more 'hum' very delineated, it was not'in this one it appeared more'


CT'But, hum... the head looks good.


CT'Humm, but the glasses and I do not know about the nose, it was more'mmm'but we all come from different places.


CT'He did not have this in his chin.


CT'And he had a long face.

DC1485'Longer than this one'

CT'Yes, although I saw him from above, I have (inaudible) because I very much like this photograph.

DC1485'Oh right.

CT'For this reason, I am very good at this. But not in measurements (inaudible)'facial recognition, hummm.

DC1485'Okay, but this one.

CT'Yes, the head, the cut of the hair, the hair line was very similar, mmm... but the individual made him on CD, humm.

DC1485'What did he do'

CT'He, well, he assigned a document to confirm that I was correct but it was all on computer and'humm'he took it back to Reading.

DC1485'He was from Reading'

CT'He worked for the Reading Police, so I assumed he was legitimate.

DC1485'Did he leave a card or another contact'


DC1485'Is the name recognisable'

CT'No, but it was all noted by the Police in Reading.

DC1485'Where did they go'

CT'They, they went to my office.

DC1485'They went to your office'


DC1485'How many of them were there'

CT'Only one, with a laptop.

DC1485'I am not suggesting that he, he'

CT'I was going to say that, I hope he was legitimate, this was a long time ago.

DC1485'Yes, I am not suggesting this, simply, I want you to help me find him.

CT'I, I do not remember his name, humm.

DC1485'You told me that he was young'

CT'Yes, a young person.

DC1485'He was in his youth'

CT'Well, a computer genious, but not one of those weird looking ones, you know'hum, very much younger'humm, he was around 25 or something.


CT'Dark hair, hum'short, yes, I remember that he was very short, humm'and was only'

DC1485'You have a fantastic memory, did you know that'

CT' (laughs) Perhaps this has something to do with my past, because I was working, hummm'my other organisation was, hummm'called Reading because it was all organized by them.

DC1485'Good, I will ask you to contact us first, unless you have a preference'

CT'I can check in my agenda when I get home.

DC1485'And call me after or'

DC1485'I keep all my appointments and if there is anything, because when I was working, I was better organised compared to when I do nothing.


CT'Perhaps there is something about his name.

DC1485'Because he must have said his name and the visit and you may have made a note in your agenda.

CT'I would have noted it as I had to also book the room.


CT'I remember this, yes.

DC1485'Okay. Some questions that were asked of me need clarification, first you told me everything that you saw when he was at the gate. In what direction he was looking when he exited; when he was preparing to leave; when he began walking through the gate and consequently, already outside the gate'

CT'Well, he was looking in the direction opposite to me.


CT'Thus, he must have... I did not look, I only saw him leave via the gate, turn and here he did this stealthily, slowly, at opening the gate,. It was the manner in which he opened it. He did not look to where I was, nor did he see me.


CT'And... humm, I was more or less with my back turned towards him, and he used two hands to do this, which was strange, and after looked in that direction, to the left, and left as I turned away.


DC1485'How much time'how much time did he look to the left'

CT'It was for a bit, very intentional.

DC1485'Like he was stopping to look'

CT'Yes, intentially to check to see something, you know, and after looking from one side to the other before leaving; this is what called my attention.

DC1485'Did someone else see him'

CT'No because my husband and aunt were seated, but below the terrace wall, so that they did not see anything.


CT'I would say that has they not been intently conversing regarding this and that...

DC1485'You would not have stayed there and'

CT'I would have, I would have called their attention and asked them what they thought of it.

DC1485'Okay. From what I can tell, this is the end of the interview.


DC1485'Very good. Is there anything else you would like to add, given that eleven months have passed when you first spoke of this'

CT'Not really, there is only the issue of what I have spoken about and which had to do with the apartment. I did not know that it was the apartment below ours and, humm'I did not know that they were staying in that apartment; I was focused on the gate. I had no idea.


CT'Except in the Sunday papers, as we have seen.

DC1485' Had you seen anyone prior, anyone at all, leaving by that gate before'

CT'Hummm... no, not while we were visiting, no.

DC1485'And do you remember if it was occupied at that time'

CT'I cannot be sure, I do not know if anyone was there because it was very early in the season, and there were some guests staying in apartments above the ground floor.


DC1485'Was there anyone there, who perhaps put out clothing'


CT'There were some, but that small also gives access to the apartments above.


CT'For this reason, I do not know...


CT'As you know, I did not see anyone leave or enter.

DC1485'Do you know if your aunt knew of anyone staying as a guest, or mentioned that someone was staying there'

CT'She probably knew, but she does not talk much about this.


CT'So this'humm.


CT'She knows some people from the Resident's Association but I cannot guarantee that she knew who was staying there. She is pretty reserved or at least tries to be, but she does know the majority of the members of the Resident's Association and when there is a meeting'for this reason perhaps she knew that an apartment would be occupied. Remembering this after so much time has passed'


CT'She is very astute, you know.

DC1485'Very good. Is there anything else you would like to add'


DC1485'She was given the opportunity to clarify. Right, it is 11h10. This interview has ended/

---> 121 XV - Interview to the witness CAROLE ANNE TRAMMER
CR 2 page 121

Questions from the Letter of Request:

XV - Interview to the witness CAROLE ANNE TRAMMER, PAMELA FENN'S niece, who lives in the apartment above the one used by the McCANN family, to be identified by the Requested Authority. She should be asked the following questions :

* Do you confirm your Statements, taken by the British Police in the United Kingdom, on 8th May, 2007 ?

* On what day, in what place and at what time did you see an individual nearby the apartment from where MADELEINE McCANN disappeared (please locate it on a map or sketch it) ?

* Where were you at the time you saw that person ? Did anyone else see him too ?

* How would you describe him ? How was he dressed ?

* What were his actions ? At what point were you no longer able to see him ?

* What was his behaviour like ? Where was he looking at and how was he doing it ?

* Do you recognise him in the photo-fit made by the witness TASMIN SILENCE, which is enclosed to the Letter of Request ?

* Any further questions deemed useful, necessary or pertinent in view of the previous replies.

Carole Tranmer

Original interview and identikit not included in DVD:

In the interview of Carole Tranmer on 22nd April 2008, as recorded on DVD, reference is made more than once to a statement given by her to Leics police on 8 May 2007, and to an identikit that was created with the assistance of a police officer from Reading.


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