RECORD OF TAPE RECORDED INTERVIEW Police Exhibit No IM23A
Person Interviewed: David PAYNE Number of Pages 45
Place of Interview: Force Headquarters, Enderby Signature of
Date of Interview: 11.04.08 Officer producing exhibit
Time Commenced: 1026 hours
Time Concluded: 1154 hours Duration of Interview: 89 minutes
Interviewing Officer(s) DC 1485 MESSIAH Tape Reference nos:
Other Persons Present None
Tape counter times Person speaking Text
00:00:04 1485 "Okay, the interview is being video recorded,
I'll make sure it is, yeah, the video, the interview is being
video recorded and we are at Leicestershire Police Force, Force
The date is Friday the eleventh of April two thousand and eight,
and I make the time by my watch ten twenty six. My name is DC
Ivor MESSIAH and I'm a Detective in the Major Crime Department
at Leicestershire Police, alright''
1485 "Could you tell me who you are please' Your name, date of
birth and where you live.'
Reply "Yes, my name's David PAYNE, my date of birth is
fourteenth of the fourth, fifty six, I live in *********** ***
, and I, do you want to know, sorry, what else''
1485 "What's your occupation''
Reply "Err I work as a hospital Doctor in err at a Registrar in
the Trent Region, currently working in Derby City General
Hospital, where I've been there for just over a week and then
prior to that I was at the Leicester General Hospital, where
I've been there for err two years.'
1485 "Fine, okay. As we explained on the chat before we came
into this interview room, this interview is being monitored.
There is a colleague in another room that's watching what's
happening here, he's acting as my second eyes if you like.'
1485 "And second ears, if there's anything I've missed you know
it'll be brought to my attention. Equally the Detective
Superintendent will also monitor during the course of today,
00:01:44 1485 "Are you happy to continue knowing that this
interview is being recorded''
Reply "I'm happy to continue.'
1485 "Okay, and subsequently at the end of this interview it may
be that a statement is produced probably later on in the day
regarding this interview, okay''
Reply "That's alright, yes.'
1485 "As I say as I explained as well there may be lots of
duplication during this interview, it may be quite tedious
because you know you'll have answered it eleven months ago,
equally your mind will be quite hazy I'm sure, the sequence of
events you know you were interviewed by the Portuguese early
1485 "Last May, and your answers may not be parallel to what you
spoke to them about, don't worry about it, you know it's passage
of time but all I'm asking you to do is to try and recall as
much as you can, the days leading up to Madeleine MCCANN'S
disappearance because that's what we're here to investigate and
at the end of the day you are our witnesses, you're not a
suspect you are our witnesses, do you understand that''
Reply "I do, yes.' 00:02:52
1485 "Okay, David, just tell me a bit about yourself, a bit
about your family, you're obviously married to Fiona PAYNE,
you've told me where you live, just tell me a bit about yourself
Reply "Okay, err as I say we have two children, err Lily and
Scarlet, err Lily will be err four in August, Scarlet's nearly
two. Err as I say we both work as hospital Doctors err we both,
err myself and Fiona trained in Leicester err where we graduated
from err we both, we met when we were at Medical School and err
yeah on the whole we've worked in the Leicestershire err region.
Err you know we're both very happy, err''
1485 "How old are your children sorry' Did you say''
Reply "Err yes Scarlet will be two in May and Lily will be four
1485 "And how long you been married''
Reply "Err we were married since two thousand and three.'
1485 "Two thousand and three''
1485 "Okay. Tell me about your social circle.'
Reply "Okay, err you know, when we got married, we actually got
married in Italy and the majority of friends of ours
unfortunately, or fortunately, are in the medical profession, I
think it's the way it works with the hours and err yeah the
nature of the job and exams etcetera, like you tend to socialise
quite a lot with medical people. Err obviously the, you know the
group who went to Portugal, Russell, err who I knew through, he
was in my year at medical school, err subsequently obviously I
knew Jane through Russell. Err in terms of Kate and Gerry, we
knew, Fiona had worked with Kate and that's how I got to know
Kate and Gerry, err you know we have probably a, just a, not a
tight band of friends but you know its generally the same
people, so the people who went, you know a lot of people came
our wedding in Italy, who we subsequently had perhaps been on
holiday with but we still stay in touch with. Err and if we
socialise with anyone then it tends to be the same, same groups
of, same group of people, the majority of them medical,
obviously apart from Jane and Rachael of course.'
00:05:31 1485 "Is everybody locally based''
Reply "Err I mean, err obviously Kate and Gerry being in
Leicestershire, Russell and Jane were in the Leicestershire
region as well up until last year when they moved err to Exeter.
Err and then Matt and Rachael, they also you know were
originally in Leicestershire and they've moved down err working
in London. Err but, you know, other friends we have, you know we
have friends dotted around the country err but you know those
are the main.'
1485 "The main.'
1485 "Okay. Moving on to Portugal, the holiday last year, the
holiday started twenty eighth of April and was due to finish the
fifth of May I believe. It's my understanding that you did, you
were instrumental really in the arranging.'
1485 "The co-ordination of the holiday.'
Reply "That's correct.'
00:06:37 1485 "What I want you to do now is, don't assume I
know anything, okay.'
1485 "Just imagine that you haven't spoke to anybody in Portugal
about this and tell me in the beginning how it all come to
happen, in other words who first decided it was going to be
Portugal, and then subsequently what happened up until the day
that you went away.'
Reply "Okay. Err it's a long winded answer.'
Reply "I mean when we first, err you know the first kind of
concept of a group holiday if you like, was when you know we
went to Italy for our wedding where we actually stayed, you know
we had all of the guests staying there err for that weekend, and
you know, I know they all say your wedding's the best, one of
the best days in your life but it was just absolutely fantastic.
We had children staying there and it was just such a great
occasion with, with everyone around and you know everyone came
and said what a fantastic, you know, time that they'd had err so
you know that was the kind of, if you like, the beginnings of
that, that concept of you know a group holiday err we then
subsequently err you know we did have holidays with other
people, you know we went away with Kate and Gerry and other
friends err to Majorca and again you know although it was very
hard, you know we'd had difficulties with you know with our
child just sleeping wise and you know it's hard work but still
you appreciated the fact that there's a group of you there and
we subsequently had been away with err Russell, Jane, and Matt
and Rachael err on another group holiday err the year after
that, and then so we'd always been looking you know to do the
same things, it is much easier when you have a group of children
you know they interact together and you know it's great for the
parents and you're all at a similar stage in life with the way
that they're growing up and you know so we were always looking
to continue that yearly err holiday, and you know we knew that
Kate and Gerry had met Russell and Jane and so you know, like
with the wedding, so all the people had you know a reasonable
relationship before err we'd gone away to Portugal. So you know
we were just looking to continue that err last year. Err we'd
all, or certainly we'd been on a Mark Warner before, I think
Matt and Rachael and Russell and Jane had been on a Mark Warner
type holiday and you know so we were looking to go on that type
of holiday where we had err all the amenities that Mark Warner
had to offer so they've got you know the sporting facilities,
they've got the creche facilities for the children and you know
so that, that kind of holiday was what we were looking for. Err
I'm trying to remember when we first chatted about you know
going on the holiday. I mean I can only remember really that we
were trying to arrange it probably two or three months err prior
to us actually booking the holiday and err but probably we'd
been chatting it I'm sure before, it may well have been before
Christmas. Err you know I'd looked on the internet at you know
what the availability was in different err locations and
Portugal was the only err Mark Warner holiday that would offer
err you know a holiday at that time of the year. Err so you know
we were hoping that the weather would be fine and Portugal was a
reasonable distance for taking children on the plane so we, you
know, we settled on, on t hat holiday. Err over the weeks there
was quite a lot of discussion about going away, you know, on the
Mark Warner holiday err the, you know we, it got to the stage of
booking it and then there had been some questioning about the
err you know the fact that it wasn't the kind of (inaudible)
same holiday as you know other Mark Warner's err you know and
you know could they guarantee that we would all be together in
err you know the apartments and I'd had quite a discussion with
Mark Warner you know email wise just to make, try and make sure
that we were guaranteed err together.'
00:10:59 Reply "And the rationale for that was just that we
would you know it's just easier if you are all in the same lot,
you know you can go next door and you know, just from the
children's point of view you know we would all be segregated if
you like. Err and then obviously there was the discovery that
that wasn't the same, it wasn't you know the same self contain
but err yeah there was similar facilities available. Err I
think, yeah so sorry as I was say just to reinforce you know I
quite a lot of correspondence with Mark Warner regarding that
and the rest of the group. Err I think when you, when you're
booking a holiday like this you know I quite enjoy err sorting
it out for everybody and err feel some, you know it makes me
feel good about myself if I've managed to arrange it for
everybody and taken the hard work out of it and you know I ended
up organising our wedding because Fiona had got her exams, and
it was the same thing you know a lot of people enjoyed
themselves, I wanted to try and do the same thing, make it
easier for everybody, and err yeah I know that err again there'd
been some concern from Kate and Gerry that they wanted to go
away on that, both err parties weren't a hundred percent you
know sure on that type of holiday. I can't say exactly you know
what the reasons, I can't remember and from that point of view
but in the end you know we just thought oh it's a great holiday
there's, everybody knows everybody and that we would have a very
good time there. There was err you know some discussion about
where we would fly from and who would fly with who and whether
we take the Mark Warner flights and from that point of view we
err originally, we eventually settled on that you know we would
fly out from East Midlands with Kate and Gerry because the
timing of the flights was, was perfect, it wasn't too early in
the morning you know so we don't have to go at some ridiculous
hour, we don't want to arrive there with kids err tired, and err
so you know we, we, err myself, Fiona and Lily and Scarlet then
flew out with err Kate and Gerry, Sean, Amelie and Madeleine,
and err you know that was basically how we ended up booking the
holiday and arriving there.'
00:13:15 1485 "Okay. I'll just go back to a few things what
you've said, who did you book the holiday with''
Reply "Err the, I mean we booked it directly through Mark
Reply "Err and the ladies that I dealt a lot with and I have,
yeah I've got the email, I've actually got the document with all
the err you know the email correspondence I had, I think it was,
the main lady was a lady called Jasminder MING but you know
there was other people that I dealt with booking it, but she was
the central figure err that helped us in dealing with.'
485 "Right, and you say that Kate and Gerry initially weren't
that keen because of, what is it they weren't keen about''
Reply "Well, say from, you know, from recollections and
obviously we have discussed you know the situation since.'
Reply "Err was that you know Kate had got an uneasy feeling,
that's all you know, has come back to her and I remember you
know again, whether this is something that's subsequently I feel
has happened be, you know before the event, but you know Fiona
had certainly mentioned it err that you know Kate wasn't quite
you know, didn't feel quite easy about it but there was no
explanation that I could give you or you know even subsequently
err in discussions that you know there wasn't one thing. Kate,
err I think Gerry's very, he's very enthusiastic and I think
he's you know, you see the way that he's conducted himself you
know over the last few months, he's a very sorted person, a very
dynamic person you know he was all you know, don't worry you
know it'll be fine and everything''
Reply "Will work its way out and you know whether it be the
logistics of the situation that err Kate was more concerned
about you know I really couldn't answer that question.'
1485 "Mm, so just so I've got it straight in my head, did the,
the concern from Kate materialise with Fiona since or did it
come out in the period that the holiday was booked''
Reply "I, in my mind there was some concern before the holiday
but I find it very difficult to separate whether this is just
something which is implanted since we've discussed after err
Reply "I can't, I couldn't a hundred percent say that in
1485 "Okay, and there was some discussion between yourself and
Mark Warner regarding the rooms.'
1485 "You say you needed the rooms for together''
1485 "What took, what sort of conversations took place''
Reply "Err basically when, you know prior to the booking err
Mark Warner had err he said oh yes it's, you know don't worry we
can make sure that all the apartments are together and err then
subsequently after booking I then you know, I, obviously it was
just something that was very you know because we knew there was
some difficulties geographically that you know you could be
split out over quite a distance on the actual Mark Warner site.
Well that would have impacted, we felt you know quite heavily on
the holiday if we'd have you know one couple were, you know,
completely out on the limb and everyone else was together so
when I'd mentioned this again you know just to, just to err you
know, confirm that that would be the situation, that we'd be all
together they, the reply was I'm afraid we can't actually
guarantee that you will all be together because this is not
solely a Mark Warner err set up you know so unfortunately we are
slightly err at the vagaries of the Ocean Club about where
couples will be but we'll do our utmost to make sure that you
are you know together. So err yeah so that's generally the way
that the, err the conversation or the email correspondence went.
Err I, you know there was other things that were slightly
different you know obviously from the childcare you know point
of view. They had the, you know they had the listening service
that they have, you know at the other Mark Warner venues that
we'd been on, and err you know that was part, you know that was
the concept again that we were buying in to the Mark Warner and
you know when we went out there that was partly, so again there
was some correspondence we had with them just you know, just
checking what, what was available in terms of the dinners as
well, err Mark Warner's are generally I think half, you know
half board and that wasn't on offer so there's some differences
with Mark, that, that particular err venue compared with the
other Mark Warner's that the, that the couples I've already
mentioned had been on previously.'
00:18:00 Reply "And err you know just for the record,
embarrassingly or as it turns out now in err retrospect you know
it's a small change but you know the Mark Warner had also
advertised that you know they were gonna discount the holiday by
ten percent you know not long after we booked, which slightly
irritated me, given the fact that we booked it and then he said
well actually we don't have this, we don't have this, so I'd had
correspondence probably being a bit cheeky just to say what,
what, you know you can knock us ten percent off as well and they
gave us some discount, which you know looking back just seems,
you know, ridiculous.'
1485 "Yeah, in the scale of things. Why specifically was it the
Reply "Err I mean as I say, we, we bought into the concept of a
group holiday, we bought into the concept of Mark Warner, we'd
all you know, apart from Kate and Gerry I don't think they'd
done Mark Warner, but you know we'd certainly been on that type
of holiday before, and as I you know recall they were the only
Mark Warner resort that was open at that time of the year. I
don't think Egypt was you know available at that time of year, I
don't think err Turkey was available and certainly Greece, so I
think at that particular moment in time it was just that
Portugal was the only one that opened that early in the season.'
Reply "And it just fitted in with our timings, we felt, you
know, obviously you go away, you want it to be a bit warmer and
you know we thought that Portugal would be ideal.'
1485 "Right. You've touched on, about the listening service that
you say that Mark Warner supply. What did you understand about
their listening service' What did it actually do''
Reply "Err I mean traditionally the, the other resorts they'll
have a listening service and what that involves is that, you
know, if you're staying on a Mark Warner err resort they will,
you know if you ask for this listening service, the parents can
go and have their evening meal and you will supply the details
of which you know is your accommodation and they will go and
listen outside the room of each of the err you know the rooms,
just to check whether the baby's crying or there's, you know
there seems to be any problem and you know that was obviously
what we were hoping for err there as well. You know we realised
that that wasn't err what they offered err in Portugal and we
knew that they did have err a drop-in err creche for the
evenings, you know I cannot, you know I cannot tell you what the
times were err that you can leave them but you know we all felt
you know that we were going there in, with the mindset that you
know we, we you know we could do the if you like the listening
outside the door but you know we actually went into rooms or the
other couples did and you know do it more frequently and that we
were offering exactly the same as what Mark Warner did and the
rest of their resort but we were just applying it to Portugal
where they didn't offer that service. Err you know the, the,
yeah, so that was really''
00:21:10 1485 "Yeah, and over what frequency did you understand
that they would have done the listening service''
Reply "I mean in, at the other resorts that we've been to err I
believe they do it every thirty minutes err you know as I say we
actually haven't used that service when we've been but you know
the friends who have they've, they've said it's around thirty
1485 "Yeah, and did the group, were the group aware that that
was the listening service's, well that's what was available
within the listening service' Was''
Reply "I, I would be pretty sure that most people before they
went away knew, its the kind of thing that I'd be a bit anal
about, that oh crikey or they don't offer this and oh you know
they said that they 'd got this and its not available and I
would, you know I'd have seen it as my responsibility again, I
haven't actually checked through the emails, you know obviously
some of it may have been on phone calls, to actually validate
that but I'd be pretty sure that everyone was aware that we
would be going knowing exactly what the circumstances were, and
I think, I suppose for my mindset, the main thing for me was
that we were all, everyone was together as a group you know the
locality of the, sort of the vicinity of the rooms was, was
close enough to make everything as easy as possible, you know
from, from all perspectives, whether it be during the day or, or
during the evening.'
00:22:37 1485 "Yeah, okay. So you've stopped your recall at the
flights, so you get to the airport, airport went okay''
1485 "Because you said that you flew with Gerry, Kate and
Reply "We did, yes.'
Reply "Yeah we had err you know a very good flight err from my,
I can remember it wasn't err, it was, the flight was about nine
in the morning, nine, nine thirty. Err everyone you know seemed,
it seemed to go without any event, we didn't remember it as one
of the worst flights we'd ever had going, I couldn't say that
about some of the other flights that we've been on so the kids
you know I'm sure they'd, you know it was very easy you know
they'd all behaved themselves and there's as least hassle as
possible err you know everyone's excited, it's you know that
time of the year you're all looking forward and err Lily you
know and Madeleine you know had met many times before and you
know they were happy to be together err I can remember you know
them holding hands and you know getting on the plane and we've
got the video footage on the, you know on the err phone of that
you know when Madeleine, you know, slipped and banged her leg.
Err you know it was as I say a very straight forward flight, got
there with minimal hassle err at some stage you know there was
some text messages with the rest of the group they'd you know
already arrived before us. Err you know we were met by, err you
know Gerry had organised err the taxi side of it err over in err
Portugal, you know it had been my responsibility to sort out the
Mark Warner and everything and Gerry had err had you know err
paid for the flight and he'd sorted the taxis out over there.
Err you know the being concerned about the child seats in the
taxi but you know we were all relatively happy err going to the
resort, it just all seemed very straight forward, very seamless,
err you know we were, as I say there was, there was just no
problems that you really could recall at that stage, it was very
00:25:01 1485 "During the flight did Kate refer to her concerns
Reply "No, no I mean err you know she, I think to play on that
particular aspect of like how worried she was about going away
would probably be over cooking it really, overstating the case.
Err you know Kate is a, you know is a very optimistic person and
you know once she'd made the decision you know went with it and
you know Kate very happy to be there and part of the group and
certainly didn't voice any concerns going over there.'
1485 "Okay. The rest of the group, sorry, in your group, in your
1485 "Was yourself.'
1485 "Your two children.'
Reply "That's correct.'
Reply "Err yes Dianne, yes.'
1485 "Kate, Gerry, Amelie.'
1485 "Madeleine and Sean.'
Reply "That's correct.'
1485 "Yeah, and you flew from East Midlands''
Reply "That's correct.'
1485 "The others, where did the others fly from''
Reply "Err the others flew from, I think it was Heathrow, I'm
not a hundred percent sure, Heathrow or Gatwick, but err you
know they, I think they'd, they'd gone with a Mark Warner flight
which was supplied with the, as I say the Heathrow or Gatwick,
and so they'd gone at any earlier flight but I think you know it
was err you know a cheaper option. We ended up paying extra
money than, you know, want for the flight times which were more
appropriate and not having to travel down err to London, but we
felt that was more you know as I say better for the children,
they'd get a longer sleep plus we didn't have to pay for car
parks down in London and petrol etcetera so err but I cannot,
I'm not a hundred percent sure whether it's Heathrow or Gatwick,
00:26:49 1485 "Okay, okay. So when you get to Portugal, tell me
about the scenario from the time you left the airport to the
time you was actually booked in at the Ocean Club.'
Reply "Yes, yeah err the, you know we, we got the, the taxi
which Gerry had sorted out err you know I say we got all the
baggage in err you know from the seat, the car seating we were
just trying to work out what the best options and where to put
the children into the taxi. We then had the journey from the
airport to Praia Da Luz and err you know again very straight
forward err yeah I can't remember how long it took whether it be
forty minutes or, or whatever. Err we arrived there, there was a
little bit of difficulty actually finding err where we needed to
be err at the err Ocean Club. Yeah I seem to, we had some texts
I think in the, you know with err Russell and Matt, you know
where were they, what were they up to and you know the rooms and
etcetera. We then, we finally found the err the reception at the
Ocean Club which was you know err geographically slightly
different distance from where we were err staying err and then
we were met err at the reception there. Again, I can't remember
who err met us, we gave err you know we picked up err you know
so we got a letter and we were, we then went back on to the err
transport which took us down to the rooms but I think you know
there was either one or two of the Mark Warner representatives
and then we you know we then went to the rooms that we were
allocated and err you know obviously err Russell, Jane and Matt
and Rachael were already err in their rooms and then we just
kind of looked at the sheets and oh that's where our room is, we
found the room and Kate and Gerry then went off err to their
room. Err we, you know we'd kind of meet up and have a chat
about what's going on there you know and that's how we arrived
at the rooms.'
00:29:04 1485 "Okay, tell me about your room.'
1485 "Where it was, or''
Reply "We, yeah we were, we were slightly different to the
other three apartments err we were, we were upstairs err we, you
know the other parties were all err in the apartments
downstairs, err you went in through the, you know, the door into
the apartment which took you into the living area. Err in the
living area slightly to the right was the dining room, all open
plan, and there was a patio doors you know which led out to the
balcony. Err if you turned right immediately into the apartment
there was the, err the kitchen, err if you went into the main
living area and turned left that took you to the, err bedrooms
and the bathroom. The first on the left was one of the bedrooms
as you're walking along and then you had, going in an
anticlockwise direction, there was the, err the bathroom and
then the next room you know anticlockwise was the other bedroom.
Err and then there was the, obviously the lounge part, there was
the television, there was err, err a sofa in there which was a
sofa bed which is where Dianne err slept and I say then there
was a balcony with a sliding doors which led out to the balcony.
Err so that's pretty much the, the apartment.'
00:30:33 1485 "How good are you at sketching''
Reply "Err, not very good.'
1485 "Otherwise it's just a brief like birds-eye view floor plan
of when you come in.'
Reply "Okay. So if you were walking through the door err here,
which you opened, as you walk in here the kitchen would have
been just here, and there was a doorway just leading in, into
the kitchen. This was part of the dining room, you know you've
got the sliding doors which were, you know just situated here,
this was the, err where the dining room table was. You had the
err lounge part here, there was a television just over, you
know, in the corner here and there's another chair about there
and then I think there's the sofa was over here. Err there was a
err piece of furniture like a dresser or a side cabinet there,
as you came along here, I've drawn this bit wrong.'
1485 "It's alright.'
Reply "The, the, yeah the first bedroom would have been you
know kind of here. Then you had the bathroom which was here and
then you had the next bedroom was here, so the doorways were in
there, no sorry there and there into the bedrooms, yeah.'
1485 "I've got the gist of that.'
Reply "But that's, yeah so.'
00:32:07 1485 "Just mark on what rooms they are, you say that's
Reply "So that's the kitchen there, that's the dining room,
that's kind of the lounge there, that's the balcony, err so
that's bedroom one, that's the bathroom, that's bedroom two.'
1485 "Okay so we have bedroom one and we have bedroom two.'
1485 "Which bedroom did your children sleep in''
Reply "Err in''
1485 "Or which did you designate for them to sleep in''
Reply "Yeah we had err Lily err was in bedroom one and''
1485 "That's the one nearest to that door there.'
Reply "That's correct.'
Reply "And Scarlet was staying in with us in bedroom two. Err
and as I say Dianne was in the lounge err on a, on a, you know
the sofa bed.'
00:33:11 1485 "Right. The door, the outside door that you
entered, what sort of a door was that''
1485 "Sorry, weird question really.'
Reply "Yes, yes.'
485 "How did it lock, and''
1485 "Was it secure''
Reply "Err you needed, yeah once the door was shut, you know
you needed the keys to, you know to gain entry err into the
apartment. Err I can't remember whether we ever had, you know
whether you can deadlock it so that you could get in and out
with the door open, but essentially you needed the key you know,
to use, if I remember to gain access into the, err into the
apartment, and you know generally it was difficult because there
was, you know we'd ask about more than one key, there was the
only one key to the apartment so during the day time you know we
left the key under the, the err there was a mat err outside, err
you know that you wipe your feet on, and err you know that's,
that's basically how we gained entry into it during the day
00:34:18 1485 "And your pat, you say your patio doors.'
1485 "So you were on, upstairs''
Reply "We were.'
1485 "Is that the first floor or the second floor''
Reply "Err so ground floor is obviously the floor where you're
Reply "And then you went up one flight of stairs err to what I
would call the first floor.'
1485 "Okay, and how was that door accessed''
Reply "Err I mean essentially you know as you came out of the
apartment we were quite close to err a lift err and you know
stairs at the side so you virtually come out of that lift or at
the stairs and then you would go into that apartment, but there
was access err to other apartments with a walk way generally
along the side.'
1485 "Yeah, and once you'd got outside, what's the scenario
Reply "Err I mean if you, you're coming out of the apartment
through the err front door you, you know as I say you were close
to the lift and elevator. If you went to the side of that there
was you know like a balcony that you could then look on err you
know out on the car park err and then you could see you know the
main road, you know, beyond that and then there was err some
other apartments that you could make out you know which were a
reasonable distance away but you could, you know, see, you know
you could make out people at that distance. Err and that was
00:35:42 1485 "Okay. I've got another sketch for you to draw now
but I'm not looking for anything to Rolf Harris.'
1485 "Just a birds-eye view of your apartment.'
1485 "In relation to the rest of your group.'
Reply "Right. This''
1485 "I know that you say that you're upstairs and they're
1485 "If you could just sort of do a block of upstairs.'
1485 "And then do a block of downstairs and then pinpoint where
they were, if you see what I mean.'
Reply "Okay, yeah. So, I mean, if you, if that was the end of
the block and this is the ground, err sorry this is the
Reply "So I've got first floor on that. The err so if you were
out on the balcony here.'
Reply "I mean it was slightly difficult because you were , you
know, you couldn't quite see down below, whether, sorry, then if
this is the ground floor err block. It's obviously it's very
easy to remember that err Kate and Gerry's apartment was right
you know at the end.'
Reply "Of there. There was certainly a gap in between one of
the apartments and I can't remember whether that gap was in
between err Kate and Gerry's and Matt and Rachael's, or that
whether it was between Matt and Rachael's and Russell and Jane's
but essentially you know, this, sorry I'll just draw these on,
so that's the front, that's the front, err Russ and Jane's were
the closest to us so you know they were directly below.'
Reply "Then Matt and Rachael, so, so Russ and Jane, so Matt and
Rachael were either next door to Russ and Jane or there was a
gap in between and then you had Kate and Gerry's, you know at
the end, but I can't really give it any more...'
1485 "Yeah that's fine, that's fine.'
Reply "Yeah, so''
00:37:52 1485 "So the rear then, which is that side there.'
Reply "Yes, yeah.'
1485 "Have you got the pool in front of you then''
Reply "Yes, I mean look, looking, err looking out err the pool
err was slightly off to the side but you know kind of that angle
err but you know we had very good vision err of the pool and
Reply "Err you know by the side of the pool and err yeah and in
between obviously the, the apartments there was the back of the
apartments where they you know you could walk out at which part
of the apartment and then there was the walk where the alley way
which you know then separated the block from the Ocean Club. Err
so we generally, if I chatted to anyone it wasn't usually when
they were in the garden below us it was more, they would be
either walking you know we'd be sat on the balcony and someone
would walk by or someone was at the pool and we'd have a
conversation, kind of thing.'
00:38:48 1485 "Yeah. Just jumping back, I've got a little bit
ahead of myself, the listening service I understand that you
made your own arrangements in relation to listening, child
1485 "What's the circumstances regarding your listening
Reply "Err we, yeah, had err got a digital monitor which you
know we obviously we used back, back home. Err yeah it was very
good, it was very foolproof, we were very happy with the
monitor. Err it's quite a high tech monitor, you could play
tunes at the other end of the monitor and so you know when err
Scarlet was very little we had that option to use that. So you
know we had chatted about what we felt was you know reasonably
err you know safe, and we say safe in the perspective of you
know both our children at that stage were in cots, you know I
think the two main things that you would be concerned about or
you know obviously not retrospectively now but certainly before
the holiday was whether the child was gonna wake up crying you
or whether the child could get you know away from the area where
they were. So from our point of view we thought well they're
both in cots, they can't get out their cots and the monitor you
know covered the crying issue. Err the monitor we checked you
know that it worked and that you could hear you know from that
distance err there's, I think there's a fail safe on it if it
loses signal it start, you know the distance between the base
and the err mobile unit err you know, you, you get red lights
showing that there is, you know that the reception is being
lost. So you know we did chat you know right from the beginning
whether we felt that was, you know that was reasonable and in
our assessment we felt that was reasonable. Err you know we, we
generally stayed err in the room, no sorry in the apartment
until the children you know had fallen asleep, you know and
then, you know we did all go down together and err so yeah there
was occasions where you could hear something perhaps on the
monitor in the room while you were you know over in the Tapas
area. Err so you know on the whole we, you know, we were happy''
1485 "You were okay with that''
00:41:22 Reply "With that, that scenario'.
1485 "Where did you, where did you place the intercom when you
Reply "Err the, obviously with the, the map of the, err the
rooms err you know we, we tended to leave the doors open of the
two rooms and we either left them, you know, usually left the
monitor here. Err I can't remember exactly where the plug point
was but usually because we were, you know, if anyone was gonna
cry it was more likely gonna be Scarlet but you could hear.'
Reply "You know but the, the distance between the two rooms is
Reply "And err you know so it was virtually slightly closer to
bedroom two but certainly you know, no, no distance at all from
Reply "You know there were, you know the, the, the, you know as
I say the quality of the err listening monitor was, you could
set the sensitivity of it to you know whatever you wanted and
you know we obviously had it on maximum sensitivity and there
was no concern about you know we weren't gonna hear them when
they were crying.'
00:42:38 1485 "What about the sliding doors in the apartment,
what were they like''
Reply "Err the sliding doors were a slight, they were slightly
difficult to lock and that was you know one of our concerns err
when we were there and it was, it was quite temperamental
whether you could open them or, or, or lock them, and err yeah
especially you know sometimes we had the other children coming
up there so it was difficult but there was someone on the
balcony or if their children were to you know venture out we
would keep an eye and you know explain to them that they
shouldn't be out on the balcony you know without an adult
present. Err but obviously we tried to keep the err door shut
when no-one was out on the balcony and err open if there's
someone sat out there keeping an eye on them. Err the way it
opened and locked was again I think it was err like a, a, a lat,
you know like a lever which went up and down and I just remember
it not being the most easy to err work out how to shut and, a
Reply "So err you know so that was probably one of the slight
difficulties with that room.'
Reply "You know, being on the first floor.'
1485 "Did any of the internal doors have any locks on''
Reply "Err the bathroom did but I can't remember the, whether
the bedrooms did or not.'
00:44:11 1485 "Okay. So the picture I was painting there was
just to get a, for me to get a view really of''
1485 "Of what you were faced with when you got your apartment.'
1485 "Do you remember what number your apartment was''
Reply "Err four G' I don't know, I don't know. I probably would
have said, well hopefully I would have said on my previous
statement you know.'
Reply "But four, you know''
1485 "It's what you can remember now.'
Reply "Four G kind of rings a bell but I wouldn't certainly,
1485 "Okay, okay. So moving on then, we, you arrive at your
1485 "You say that you've, that the bus has took you round,
you've gone to yours, Gerry and Kate have gone to theirs, Matt
and Rachael and Russell were already there.'
1485 "What sort of time in the day was this''
Reply "Crikey, err it was, I'd have said mid afternoon, yeah
perhaps around three, four o' clock err in the afternoon, still,
you know light, still some time in the day left yeah to enjoy
it, and again that was one of the benefits of that flight, it
was a nice time that we weren't arriving there at, at night, you
know the kids would go straight to bed so you just had a bit of
day light, you know just to see what the place was like and err
you know just to make the most of that bit of day that you had
00:45:32 1485 "Okay. So now what I want you to do is talk me
through the rest of your day. Try and, try not to leave out
1485 "How menial it may be.'
1485 "If you can remember talking to anybody to the time you
went to bed.'
Reply "Mm, err I think one of the things that I remember is
there was difficulties you know we was trying to get the cots
situation sorted out and I can't remember, I mean I've thought
about this when, you know because I went into Kate and Gerry's
apartment right, you know from the beginning to sort out one of
the cots because I don't think they, you know, there was a spare
one they, they'd had or just to work that out, but err you know
during, during the day as I say I, its such a long time ago and
all I can remember is we were you know excited, we were going
into one person's apartment, having a chat and seeing where
they'd been, err you know but I must admit I can't give any
detail really err regarding exactly who we chatted to or what,
the rest of that day. Err you know we, you know we all went err
to Millennium, again I, whether it was the Saturday night or the
Sunday night I'm not, I can't recall.'
00:46:51 Reply "And err you know we all, you know that was the
first group meeting that we'd had all, altogether but I'm sorry
I can't really recall more.'
1485 "Mm, how long before you all went to the Millennium, I
appreciate you're all excited and, in your words, you'd gone
into each others apartments, you'd gone into you know Kate and
1485 "How long before you'd all sort of, all the excitement had
subsided if you like before you eventually went up to, left the
apartments as a group''
Reply "Yes, I'm really sorry I can't say exactly what time.'
1485 "No, sort of rough time.'
Reply "Rough, roughly''
1485 "Rough sort of time span.'
Reply "Err I mean, several, it must have been several hours
because the girls you know were excited, they're playing and
everything, so I, I'd say several hours but I'm sorry, I can't
say any more.'
1485 "That's okay, if you can't remember times''
1485 "During this interview, try and refer to time spans.'
1485 "That might make it, that's a more of a broader''
1485 "Spectrum isn't it.'
1485 "Rather than say from four till five if you say a couple of
hours, you know, that will probably help me to build a picture.'
Reply "Yes, yes.'
1485 "Of you know the chronologic in your day really.'
1485 "So the period of time was a couple of hours from arriving
to going up to the Millennium''
Reply "Err I'd have said something around two to three hours.'
Reply "Probably, roughly.'
00:48:19 1485 "And you all went up as a group''
Reply "Err again, as far as I can remember we were all there,
you know, it just seemed like the first, as I say as far as I
can remember it was the Saturday evening we all went up there
err you know you want to explore as well, you know this was one
of the places that we'd been told you know err would, whether
there was a reception there you know and we'd been advised to go
there that night you know, again I can't remember if that was on
the information advice but that's what we, you know decided on,
and err you know just to see what it was like up there and you
know you want to explore what the rest of the place is like. You
know you're already thinking you know where are you gonna eat,
perhaps on other nights and err things like that, err so we went
up there you know as far as I can remember that night and with
the, with the whole group.'
1485 "Okay. How long do you think you stayed up there' Again,
no, doesn't have to be times but more sort of time spans.'
Reply "Err I thought we were there, you know a good couple of
hours, it certainly felt, you know, err around that time span.'
Reply "Err, yeah just working out you know where we're gonna
eat and sit, sit down there and you know think there wasn't
gonna be too many people there right at the beginning err eating
in the Millennium, and err you know its like where are the high
chairs its all new err get them sit down then you're all having
a good chat you know you met up and err certainly you know two
hours or maybe longer.'
00:49:54 1485 "Mm, and when you finally left did everybody leave
as a group' Or did you leave in dribs and drabs''
Reply "I haven't a clue, I really can't recall.'
1485 "Did you go anywhere else that night''
Reply "Err I don't think we did no, I don't think so.'
1485 "You didn't go back to the Tapas bar''
1485 "The first night.'
1485 "Okay, and during, I know you say generally speaking you
were all chatting and excited about the holiday, but is there
anything that stands out in your mind that you'd spoke about on
that first day''
Reply "Err, I mean, you know the fact, I think the fact that we
were upstairs was you know, you know going back to my slightly
embarrassing side of you know moaning so much about being
together and everything and we'd ended up being put up, upstairs
you know err so it you know it just felt like, you know whether
I'd been opening my mouth too much and they put us you know
above everyone else and whether that was perceived as any
difference to the other apartments in terms of you know was it
better to have a balcony upstairs and, you know.'
Reply "Slightly better view looking across at the sea or
whatever you know...'
1485 "The rivalry crept in did it''
00:51:18 Reply "Well not that anyone said that or anything but
you just, you know again you don't want to be, err whether they
were placating us just to make, you know because I'd moaned so
Reply "But a, but apart from that I think you know everyone had
err settled in err pretty much err we could well have had a beer
in the apartment you know earlier on in the day again and you
know just, I can't remember you know exactly, but you know
everyone was relatively happy and unscathed.'
Reply "I think when you're err commuting with children, flying
and airports they all get very tired and grumpy and I think we
all, were all quite unscathed err and we were just looking
forward to the week ahead and you know what activities we were
gonna do, so there was nothing really that stood out at all,
1485 "Okay. Did anybody comment about the listening service that
night, the first night''
Reply "Comment' Not that I'm aware of, not that I'm aware of.
Err yeah I say you know it's a, you know it's a reasonably sized
group, you've got quite a lot of high chairs intermingled you
know so it kind of splits the group up a bit and you know so if
anyone else had that conversation then perhaps but it's
certainly something that I don't recall. You know there
certainly wasn't you know any, I don't think, there wasn't
certainly err a feeling of oh crikey this isn't, err you know
this is, this is not a safe place, you know as a, you know a
small community you know we may have commented it's different to
err previous Mark Warner's, whether that was that night or
whether that was another night in that you know it wasn't, you
know what we'd all been on a Mark Warner before, you know we
were all perhaps quite, it wasn't quite as obvious you know as
we thought that it wouldn't be, you know like the other places,
quite as self contained but there wasn't still a feeling of err
concern you know, we were, you know we were all, we were still
very enthusiastic about err the holiday. I mean that wasn't you
know generally, you know if there's something which is a miss,
out of place then these things tend to get, you know mooted
around the group so it wasn't something that was you know really
chatted at any great length if it was discussed at all.'
00:53:53 Reply "I think the only thing that probably became
apparent about the Millennium where we ate was that that was a
distance away from where we were staying and in terms of you
know the logistics of getting from where we were to there with
the small children and you know the pushchairs when some of them
were perhaps a little bit old to go in the pushchair and wanted
to walk, which it was just a little bit too far for them to
walk. There was the, you know, the main, there's a main road
that you had to cross over which, well it wasn't busy busy but
you know, so that was, you know if there's any discussion I'd
have said that was probably the most you know err that might
have been said that night.'
Reply "But I mean again, that doesn't stand out majorly in my
1485 "Yeah, okay. So the night ended, you've gone back to your
1485 "Anybody back to each other's apartments or was it just
Reply "(Sigh) err I'm, I'm, sorry I can't, I just can't
1485 "Okay, well did anybody come back to your apartment on the
Reply "Err you know, they could have done, but I can't, I can't
recall at all.'
1485 "Okay. I forgot to ask you, could you see the Tapas bar
from your balcony''
Reply "You, you can yes, I mean there's a, there's a screen
which is in the way err you know for a direct vision so if you
were going from, from looking out from our apartment, you know
you have the, obviously the gardens of the people's apartments
directly below us, then you had the alley way, then you had a
bit of land, then you had the swimming pool, then a bit more
land then you had the Tapas bar.'
Reply "But in between the pool and the Tapas bar there was some
screening but you know it wasn't to the stage that you couldn't
see through the screening. Err but to the degree of could you
see who was exactly in the Tapas bar and where they were sat, it
wasn't that easy you know to make that out but you could see the
00:56:03 1485 "Yeah, I mean as the crow flies, how far do you
think it was from your balcony to the Tapas bar''
Reply "Err I would have said about, about thirty metres.'
1485 "And how long would it take you to walk''
Reply "To walk down.'
1485 "From your apartment to the Tapas''
Reply "Okay, so I mean you, the majority was you know, you'd go
down the stairs, you'd go round err through the car park, turn
right, right down the road and go in through the main entrance,
so you're looking at a couple of minutes you know walk.'
Reply "Err from leaving the door to arriving at the Tapas bar
err you know there, there's a way you could go slightly around
the side but I, you know, again in terms of time to get in, get
in to the Tapas bar I don't think it made a great deal of err
1485 "Okay. So let's move on to the next day, your first full
day which is the Sunday.'
1485 "Tell me as much as you can.'
1485 "From the time you got up till the time you went to bed.'
00:57:18 Reply "I think err from my point of view, you know I
find it very difficult to recall the exact events you know err
you know on a day to day err basis. You know I find it easier
just to say generally what happened you know during the week
1485 "Well the first day you would have sorted out your
activities wouldn't you''
1485 "So if that helps you''
1485 "To at least get the first day out the way.'
Reply "Yeah, err you know we, I mean the one thing that we, me
and Fiona were quite keen on would be to err you know there was,
on the water sports err side of things. Err we were keen to put
the kids into the creche you know for the morning, err you know
we were gonna look, you know the, ours tended to sleep during
the afternoon so err you know on the, again we'd have perhaps
gone down to the water, you know the water sports area just to
you know maybe to sign up for courses there, err as I say we
were just generally interested in trying to err windsurf and
perhaps go on the dinghies. Err other members of the group were
really interested in you know the tennis side of things and
getting the lessons but I'm really sorry I can't remember
00:58:37 1485 "Where did you breakfast on the first day''
Reply "Err I mean we could you know obviously there's the
Supermarket, which wasn't too err far away, did we all go up,
I'm trying to think whether we went to the Millennium for the
breakfast or whether we went to the Supermarket on the first
day. I can't remember, I'm sorry.'
Reply "Okay, and you mentioned your creches.'
1485 "Did you take your''
1485 "What time would you have taken them to the creche''
Reply "I mean well Lily and err Scarlet you know, being the
different age groups, were in different places and err Scarlet
was down by the err the actual reception at the Ocean Club and
err Scarlet, err Lily was up at the err Tapas bar. Err so
generally Fi would take Scarlet after breakfast err which we you
know we did often have. Again you know we stayed on for four
weeks unfortunately after and you know we had breakfast in the
apartment and it just blurs.'
Reply "One into the other, whether you know we were at the
Millennium but I seem to remember that we would generally go to
the Millennium. There was one morning I can recollect that err
you know that Kate and Gerry were walking back and found it
difficult because Sean and Amelie were, as I say, in the age
where they wanted to walk but it was difficult to get them and I
think they were, you know generally thinking that the Millennium
for breakfast wasn't probably a particularly a good idea, which
you know I think more often than not we generally ate at the
Millennium, err and then after we'd eaten breakfast there which,
and again I think finished at nine o' clock, we would then, you
know after we'd finished breakfast try and get them down to err
you know drop them off at the Ocean Club or at the creche by the
Tapas, then you know depending on whether there was anything
going on that morning from the sporting point of view then you
know we'd go wherever. Err you know mixed into the melee was you
know we often went in the morning to the Supermarket to do a bit
of a shop and you know with a big group that we seemed to get
through things pretty quickly and err so as I say I'm afraid one
day does blur into another, I can't really recall specifics.'
01:01:02 1485 "Okay. I understand that your apartment was like
the meeting place.'
1485 "Can you recall that''
Reply "Yes, definitely. Err you know, I, I, it just happened
you know the way it happened you know people just gravitated up
to err to our room err you know it's, I suppose some part we'd
got Dianne there who is fantastic at you know helping, you know
it's a free set of hands whereas you know Russ and Jane
obviously they've got two, and we've got two and so you know it
was good that we've got someone extra to help out while you know
someone's preparing the food, keep an eye on the children, err
so often you know we would, you know we'd con, congregate there
at lunch time and quite often if I remember Matt and Rachael
would bring Grace along and you know we'd eat there together.
Err a lot of the time we didn't tend to see you know Kate and
Gerry you know it was more Russell and Jane primarily I
remember, and sometimes Matt and Rachael and Grace but generally
err Kate and Gerry would do their own thing err you know during
the day, so that's, but they you know they would still come up
you know from time to time. So it was well used at the, that
01:02:26 1485 "Was it, I notice you say that you didn't see much
of Kate and Gerry and you that sparsely see Russell and, was it
something that you discussed before the holiday that you was
gonna all do your own thing in the day then just meet up for
Reply "Err no, no it was just one of these things that you know
naturally happened err I think the children, you do whatever is
the easiest and you know you fall into a pattern and it just
seemed, you know whenever you wanted to put your kids down or
whenever they were tired or you know as I say ours slept in the
afternoon but I'm, you know for example I know that Sean and
Amelie didn't you know tend to have sleeps err you know and
Madeleine, during the day. So you know they, yeah their time was
pretty occupied right from first thing in the morning till''
Reply "You know when they went to bed, whereas for us we had
that kind of period of time where we had to be up in our room,
you know to get them off to bed after and so we would, that's
why we were generally at that spot at the same time, whereas you
know err whatever routine that Kate and Gerry fell into they
fell into it for, you know to fit around the way that they
constructed their day, err as, you know I say they, you know
they were keen on the tennis side of it so that was something
that they were doing err so it's all, you know, to'ing and
fro'ing, perhaps you know like Dianne one day would have a
lesson, then one day err you know Jane would perhaps err play
and stay with Matt and Rachael err Matt was quite keen on the
water sports and Russell so perhaps some days they'd go down so
it's all very dynamic err situation. But err you know I, I
suppose the other thing is you know Lily and Ella you know
they've grown up from very little together so it was always nice
for them to, to, you know to join up together and whether that
Reply "You know its quite subconscious things as well, they
like meeting up, err during the mornings Ella you know was
slightly older than Lily so she'd go to the err Ocean Club and
err yeah so Lily didn't see Ella so you know she perhaps, you
know come up at that stage you know, so.'
01:04:52 1485 "So your days generally speaking were taken up by
doing your own activities.'
1485 "And taking your children to activities then doing your
Reply "That's it.'
1485 "Eating and them having a sleep.'
1485 "Would that be the generally, I'm not gonna go through day
Reply "Yeah, yeah.'
1485 "Because you''
Reply "I can't.'
1485 "I get the picture what you're saying is''
Reply "Yeah, yeah.'
1485 "I can understand that.'
Reply "Yeah, I mean you know some days we'd perhaps go, you
know as I say it wasn't the same everyday and we'd perhaps go
down to the beach you know we'd take you know go down to the
beach or perhaps we'd do some water sports down there and then
err Fiona would perhaps bring the kids along and we'd, you know
we'd play with them on the beach and then we'd, you know we'd
have something to eat err down in the restaurant at the err
which looked over the beach. So, but you know large, by and
large there wasn't a great deal of variety, we didn't say oh
we'd try eating there another night or we'll do this on err you
know another night. I think you know when we ate at the
Millennium on the first night we you know we'd give them, what I
said before, the it's a bit away and everything and, and I can't
remember whose idea it was but you know well we thought the
Tapas bar, that's much better why don't we try and err book
there. Err I think, I think it was Rachael, she's very organised
and err you know whether she just booked for the first night at
the Tapas and then decided that she's gonna book for subsequent
nights err at the err not the main reception but the reception
leading into the Tapas area, the Paul with I think the lady's
Sylvia, and so she booked the err you know from early in the
morning because I think they had to get in early to make sure
that you know they could guarantee, there's only so many people
who could eat there.'
01:06:38 Reply "And we just thought it was much better to eat
there, it was much more convenient and err you know there wasn't
the, you know you had to walk away and it just, you know seemed
a much better idea doing that really but you know generally we
just fell into the pattern on the whole but a slight variation
of where we ate but not a great deal.'
1485 "Mm, so for the rest of the week did you, the first night
was the Millennium.'
1485 "For the rest of the week did you then eat at the Tapas
Reply "Yes, yes. I think, yes I think you know for me, Fiona
and Dianne you know we, fortunately for us, managed to be there
you know every night, usually most nights there was somebody
who'd been, or a child who'd been ill and you know their parents
would you know stay to look after the child or you know if
they'd been unwell themselves you know and didn't, didn't want
to come out so, but we you know, we were there every night.'
1485 "Yeah. So that, it's okay, so that first night then at the
Tapas, that was obviously when this relaying came to notice
where everyone was checking their children. Can you tell me
Reply "Yeah, err it's, it's funny in that you know you, when
you're with a group of people and you're sat at a table, you
don't, you know you're not always aware of you know, if it was
four people sat at a table and someone goes its much more
obvious you know that they've gone err and given the fact that
we were slightly different in the way that you know we had the
monitoring service, that, I didn't quite pay attention to what
everyone else was doing but they were very, you know by the
conversation you know who was going, you know they were very,
the other groups were very strict in the timing that they would
go. Err you know the, you know the certain, you know from what I
can remember there wasn't anything longer than thirty minutes
you know in between one of the couples looking after their own,
and again this is only from chatting to people, not from my own
01:08:48 Reply "Is that they all looked after their own
children, they all went to look on their own children from each
of the nights but you know I was just, you know slightly
oblivious to this because we'd set up ours and you know I know
everyone went at some stage.'
Reply "Err as I say you know err one night you know Matt wasn't
very well and you know wasn't there, err and you know so there
were some nights where you, you realised at the table that
someone was, you know was missing for the full event of the
evening and then you'd perhaps see someone might go, so most of
the time you know people would, you know from the group someone
would go at a regular interval, and you know all I can say was
you know people were very strict about this and it was something
that they you know, it wasn't like ah shall we go now, you know
now we've, nah they'll be fine, it wasn't you know everyone was
very strict and it comes back to the, you know the Mark Warner,
we were just trying to replicate what they, you know as a policy
which they've adapted you know at their sights across Europe.'
Reply "And we thought well okay if they're not gonna do that
we'll, you know this is what we do, it's not, not far away err
so and everyone adhered, you know looked after their own
children and did it very regularly. But I couldn't say on this
night this person went.'
01:10:12 1485 "Right, I'm gonna ask you that, I'm gonna ask you
to try and think now, see if you can see it in your head now any
occasions where you noticed say Matt had gone and then you
noticed when Jane had gone, try and see it in your head and try
and, it doesn't necessarily have to be in the, I'm only
interested at this moment up until Wednesday.'
1485 "Try and remember whether you saw specifically anything
Reply "Mm yeah, err I mean as I say I know, or, I, the big
problems with err Matt he'd been unwell one night and Grace had
been poorly and I think and Evie so there'd been some, you know
there'd been concerns from that point of view and err so perhaps
one of those, you know the adults out of the people I just
mentioned would be you know away from the table but specifically
who went back to look on what night and who went you know
there's no chance that I remember.'
Reply "I've, I thought about this but I can't, can't recall.'
1485 "Yeah. Do you recollect, I'm just trying to pick at a loose
end, but could you see your own apartment from where you were
1485 "And did you sit in the same seat virtually every evening''
Reply "Err wasn't the same seat every evening, err but I tended
to sit more round one side of the table than, than the others
which, you know I generally, you know if I tried to paint a
picture that I was in a prime seat so I could look into my
apartment every night then that wouldn't be truthful.'
Reply "But err but just by where I did sit I generally could
see in that direction.'
01:12:00 1485 "Right, okay. Is there anything at all that you
can think might be useful leading up to Thursday, in the
evenings, that you can remember now''
1485 "And conversation' Because I understand it was cold, rainy
on a couple of days.'
Reply "Mm, mm, yes. I mean from the, you know from the, yeah it
was quite cold some nights and you know perhaps nearly too cold
to be sat outside err but there was certainly nothing that you
know led me to any concern during that week err you know it was,
you know we were all quite happy with, I say, what we were doing
and err where, you know the way that we'd tackle things, it was
err you know there's nothing that in my mind worried me.'
1485 "Okay, and again going back to the daytime, in amongst your
activities, because your activities, Fiona's activities in
relation to the other group's activities, is there anything that
1485 "The beach''
Reply "No, I mean we sometimes we'd, you know on the beach we'd
see the Mark Warner you know see our children down there and
sometimes it was you know err you'd see them playing there which
was a little bit difficult because you know you didn't want them
to see you because it'd be hard on them. I often went down with
Fiona, as I say we were err you know interested in the water
sports side of things err and err Matt and Russell sometimes
went you know they, Matt's very good on the err catamaran and I
know that Russell and Matt sometimes did that. Err and I say
Kate and Gerry took, I don't they're particularly water sports
err people, err so they, you know they weren't interested in
that side of it but you know, there was nothing really that
sprung to my attention that worried me.'
01:14:27 1485 "What about, again I'm bitting and bobbing here,
I'm trying to jog your memory.'
Reply "Yes I know.'
1485 "Which, you know.'
Reply "Not easy.'
1485 "When you go to dinner in the Tapas what sort of time in
the evening would you go''
Reply "Err I think it was a bit of a standing joke that we were
always the last there err you know we tended to, you know we
were getting later and later I think as the week went on, err
you know the table I think was generally booked from about half
past eight and people would arrive anything from perhaps eight
o' clock, but generally we were on the, after you know just
after half past eight I'd say, you know rather than on the good
side of half past eight. So you know, and err there was usually
a comment when we arrived.'
1485 "What, like here they are or something''
Reply "Here they are again, yes, kind of so err yeah obviously
on, on the you know if you wanted to go onto the, the night
1485 "Yeah, not yet.'
Reply "We'll do that, yeah.'
01:15:33 1485 "Okay, err so you know there's, yeah there's,
yeah, you know, you know we chatted about it, you know the quiz
night and who was there err you know I know there was the odd
couple here and there on certain, different nights err I
remember one night, I think it was the quiz night, there was the
err the instructor who does the err pilates and the aerobics and
you know was chatting with her one night err but again you know
my, as for observation of what was else going around me wasn't
particularly great. Err you know Wednesday night we stayed a bit
later that night err you know we, we had a drink in the bar
after which was the only night that we, you know we did that,
but apart from that there's nothing else.'
1485 "When you got down to dinner most evenings, was everybody
there bar yourselves, were you always the last ones''
Reply "Err generally we were always the last there unless you
know there'd been any illnesses or you know someone arrived
later but as far as I remember we were always usually pretty
much the last there.'
1485 "Yeah. Why were you late''
Reply "Err we're rubbish' I don't know, err I think you know
we, I think we, we are renowned for that, err its probably me
but you know we just, in terms of efficiency of getting the kids
down and you know make sure everyone's ready in time we're just
a bit poor at doing that.'
01:17:12 1485 "And when you leave would you, how would you sort
the children out''
Reply "Yeah, I mean most nights I say we would err they would
be asleep before we left. There was one night where we were
quite late and they wouldn't go down and I said oh I'll stay up
and you know I'll keep an eye on them and wait till they've gone
to sleep and then I'll, I'll come down. Err you know and again,
you know I say Fi could hear the monitor quite clearly err that
night and again, just another reassuring that we had that
monitor. Err but yeah, apart from that I can't, so yeah perhaps
it was slightly more difficult with the two, you know our two,
getting them off to sleep err you know Scarlet was err you know
the youngest there so she wasn't quite into a good pattern like
the others so you know it perhaps takes a little bit longer from
that point of view, but err I was just rubbish.'
1485 "Would the children always be asleep then by the time you'd
Reply "Yeah, yeah. Yeah we'd certainly leave when they were
asleep and I say or if they weren't then I'd, I'd you know at
that time of the night I can remember that Lily was awake and
wait until she'd gone. Err but by and large I can't remember any
nights when they weren't asleep when we went down.'
1485 "And what sort of time would you generally put them to
Reply "Err I mean we would, so they, I mean they had the you
know if they ate at the err kids club you know and again it's
just difficult what happened after, you know for the weeks after
because we ate at the kids club then, did we eat before, how
often did we eat, ours were a bit fussy on the eating and from
what I can remember sometimes we ate you know in the, in the
room, but that could've been mixed up with my recollections of
you know what we did after. Err but that was generally around
five, five thirty so we wouldn't certainly get back to the room
till six, we often went to the play area you know that seemed to
be quite another time of the day where we, you know most people
would be there and the children were there err you know played,
sometimes you know there was a social tennis bit in the evening
err certainly we tended to watch a little bit of that if we
hadn't played, you know, ourselves and then from err from there
you know say right okay it's time to go up, so perhaps you go up
around six thirty, seven o' clock, then they'd have you know
the, most nights we liked to give ours baths because you know we
just felt that we liked to get them into as much of a routine in
a strange environment as possible. Err you know so probably
we're looking at trying to get them down about seven thirty,
somewhere around there.'
01:20:00 1485 "Yeah.'
Reply "Err then started getting ready, which is usually say
pretty last minute and then rush to get ready and then you know
as soon as the three of us were ready then right let's go down
err perhaps the other thing was the logistics of like three
people getting ready in one bathroom you know you have to wait
longer, whereas the others were just two people.'
1485 "Yeah. So generally as a rule when you were ready to go,
how would you leave the apartment''
Reply "Okay, so the, you know obviously the, err the bal, err
the sliding doors and the balcony were always err shut err you
know the monitor was always put in the position that we've err
you know mentioned, which is you know on the floor between the
two doors. Err and Fi would, you know, generally look after the
monitor err the mobile unit and err and again as far as I can
recall Dianne tended to be the most reliable to look after the
key. Err and then you know so the door would be locked err you
know you wouldn't be able to get in that door from the outside,
in terms of the doors in the children's bedroom we left them
slightly ajar you know just again so we could hear them err the
eldest, Lily's always been used to the door being slightly open
so you know if we'd have shut it she didn't particularly like
that so those doors were open. Err the shutters, yeah they,
they, I can only ever remember them being down but you know
obviously we spoke about this since and you know if we say
perhaps during the day to let a bit of light in the room the
shutters were err you know moved up, but on the whole the
shutters were down err when we left. Err you know the television
you know was switched off and you know there was nothing else
really unique I don't think about how we left the apartment.'
01:22:03 Reply "Err I can't, you know there's one, you know
right at the beginning I'd had the key and I'd misplaced it in
my pockets or somewhere and that was the moment that Dianne took
it on herself that she was gonna be, you know Dianne's extremely
good that way and probably being a mother of three very
organised and so she was, you know, err then we'd go off down to
the Tapas bar or you know usually the three of us together.'
1485 "Yeah. Would you have passed anybody on the way''
1485 "Up until Thursday.'
Reply "Up until Thursday, again you know we could well have had
a conversation either with you know err Matt and Rachael or Russ
and Jane you know or if their doors were open or we'd give them
a knock you know and say we're going over but again generally we
were the last there but there may have been times that we just
you know knocked on them just to see whether they were coming
over or meet you over there but again I can't remember.'
1485 "And what about on the actual route down to the Tapas,
would you have passed any other group then''
Reply "Err not really because, unless someone was coming back
1485 "Yeah that's what I mean.'
Reply "Err again you know I can't remember apart from on the
night you know people passing by or you know specifically.'
01:23:21 1485 "Okay. Just a general question about the resort,
what was it like' Was it busy' Or you know, was there a lot of
people in your, in the Ocean Club' The resort in general, was it
Reply "It did, it didn't seem busy err at all err it, you know
it seemed very quiet. The, and you know, if that wasn't the
first week you could book it was certainly the second week so it
certainly hadn't err had many people there, you know chatting to
Mark Warner staff they'd not been long err you know many weeks
out there preparing and you know they, so easy for them I think
with the number of children that they had because it wasn't you
know anywhere near capacity err for them. If you err its you
know a beautiful place, beautiful beach and you know and you
expect the place is usually a lot busier than that and it you
know but it certainly seemed very quiet for that time of, well
not, sorry, not for that time of year but just seemed very quiet
but not, you know it was understandable for that time of the
year. Err you know err the err the pool area you would never see
a great number of people by, by the pool, you know the water was
actually quite cold, you had to be quite brave to go in the
pool. You know the Tapas area itself during the daytime
certainly you'd perhaps see the odd people from time to time,
err but it wasn't, it certainly wasn't full by, you know, any
capacity. Err you know and the eating in the Millennium the
first night, I say I can't recall hardly any other people being
there and when we had been eating in the Tapas bar there wasn't
many couples in the evening you know so the general reflection
for the whole time was err there wasn't that many people. Err
you know there was some other couples that err Kate and Gerry
had you know made friends with through the err tennis you know
that we got to know a little bit as well and you know you
generally tend to see the same people err but yeah it was very
quiet err you know it was quite windy err you know which wasn't
surprising as I say already it had been quite cold in the
evening but err so that's really my''
Reply "Recollections of what the place, how the place came
01:25:47 1485 "I think one of you commented on err England being
warm while you were over there.'
Reply "Was it' Probably.'
1485 "Can you remember that''
Reply "Err probably.'
1485 "Just have a quick check of the time. We're gonna go for a
1485 "I've just gotta check, make sure I haven't missed
1485 "In this first interview and then we'll close the interview
and get you drink, alright''
Reply "Okay, that's brilliant, thank you.'
1485 "Did you actually offer to check any of the children' I
know you say that you didn't have to check yours.'
Reply "Yeah, no I never, I never did offer to check. Err there,
as much as I you know, know, knew all the children well I err I
probably wouldn't have felt, you know, bizarrely I wouldn't have
felt quite comfortable checking them, more, you know if I, if it
was at home and perhaps one of the children wasn't settling you
know I'd go upstairs and go well you know could you be quiet but
there I didn't feel quite comfortable doing that, it just, you
know if the child was crying or upset and not sleeping I think
the first person you know at that stage probably''
1485 "Yeah. Okay at this stage I've got no further questions, as
I say with how, how its constructed in phases, lead you up to
you know, I'm conscious I've led you up to the third of May.'
1485 "Is there anything, think hard, is there anything that
we've discussed or we haven't discussed that you feel you ought
to bring to my attention now''
Reply "Err you know I suppose the only thing to reinforce is
that you know at this stage you know we were having a very good
week, you know apart from the odd illness here and there, there
was just nothing upsetting the group, there was no unusual
behaviour, there was nothing that was untoward about anybody
there, err certainly Kate and Gerry were you know very happy,
interacting well and the children were extremely happy.'
01:28:39 Reply "And you know we'd fallen, as I say we did vary
things slightly but we'd all fall in to pretty much you know a
reasonable pattern, framework of doing things and err you know
everyone was enjoying themselves.'
1485 "Yeah. Was there anybody around the resort or you know
your, the Ocean Club in general that you weren't happy with''
Reply "Err we, you know we did obviously retrospectively
question you know who'd been in, in to the resort to actually
work there. They, on one of the days they had some err gardening
people which we hadn't you know seen before and we you know we
just wondered, you know, after Madeleine had gone err you know
who they were and what their you know validity was if you like.
Err the, I know that again, you know Kate and Gerry had had
problems err with I think it was the blinds in their flat and
the fridge and they'd had people in err you know into the flat,
you know which obviously retrospectively was a concern as well.
Err yeah that, you know who were those people, had they been
Reply "Err but apart from that err there was nothing else that
really you know springs to mind.'
1485 "Okay. That's it for the time being.'
1485 "I'll check, once we've done this interview, I'll check
with my colleagues to see whether I've missed anything during
this interview, alright''
Reply "That's great.'
1485 "But in the meantime I'll stop this interview now and it's
coming up to, it's eleven fifty four.'
01:30:31 The interview ceased at 1154 hours when the
tape recorder was switched off.
RECORD OF TAPE
RECORDED INTERVIEW Police Exhibit No IM24A
Person Interviewed: David PAYNE Number of Pages 48
Place of Interview: Force Headquarters, Enderby Signature of
Date of Interview: 11.04.08 Officer producing exhibit
Time Commenced: 1319 hours
Time Concluded: 1459 hours Duration of Interview: 100
Interviewing Officer(s) DC 1485 MESSIAH Tape Reference nos:
Other Persons Present None
Tape counter times Person speaking Text
00:00:03 1485 "Okay the video is now recording again.'
continue with the interview on Friday the eleventh of April
two thousand eight at Leicestershire Police Force
Headquarters. I make the time by my watch thirteen nineteen on
that day, I'm DC Ivor MESSIAH and I'm a Detective within the
Major Crime Team in Leicestershire Police. Could you tell me who
you are please''
Reply "I'm David PAYNE.'
1485 "Okay, that
should suffice for the time being. Just to continue the
introductions, you're here in relation to assist Leicestershire
Police as a witness into the disappearance of Madeleine MCCANN
in Portugal on the third of May two thousand and seven. Is that
Reply "That's correct.'
1485 "And we've
already had a first interview and what we discussed in the first
interview was in some depth really wasn't it, the time that you
left, or your planning of the holiday, your flight out, you know
your subsequent arrival in Portugal and then we tried as best we
could to go through your days from the Saturday till Thursday.'
what I now want you to concentrate on David is the important day
really, Thursday the third of May. I want you to try and put
yourself back in to that, it may help you if you think of the
time when the alarm was raised, that may well bring you back to
the beginning of the day and try and remember as much as you
can, the time you got up, I know that you said on the first
interviews that you couldn't remember an awful lot but try as
best you can to remember from say midday onwards.'
"Mm yeah, err on that particular day err me and Fiona had you
know gone down to the beach, we err took the dinghies out err as
usual we went, you know we had the kids, err we had lunch err in
the apartment. Err that afternoon I wanted to go down err to the
Ocean, err to the beach and err you know windsurf err Matt and
Russell had gone down there, they were, had taken the catamaran
out. So I went down there err while Fiona and Dianne were
looking after the girls in our apartment. Err I was down err
windsurfing, I must have been windsurfing for a couple of hours,
err saw Matt and Russ out on err the catamaran and then after we
finished there we you know we met on the beach, played with the
girls on the beach and then we went to the err the restaurant
which is on the err overlooking the beach and you know we had
err the evening meal there. Err after we had the meal we got
some ice cream and then err we decided that we were gonna go up
and play tennis so I left err with err Russell, we left the, err
the girls at the restaurant and we went up to the, err back up
to the Ocean Club. Err I, as I say I'm not sure you know what
happened to Matt and Russell at that particular moment but I
remember then you know I went over to see err Gerry at the err
you know tennis courts, just to see you know what was happening,
and err decided that we'd, you know I'd come, come back to play
tennis and err Gerry had asked me just to pop in and check
everything was alright err with Kate or you know again I can't
remember the exact reason whether he was just making sure it was
alright that he could stay there and you know more time but you
know he'd asked me to pop in.
So I walked back err from the tennis courts, err back to err you
know Kate and Gerry's apartment and the time you know looking
at, you know we've looked obviously at photographs since then
and you know the time that we've got that I was you know going
to Kate's about six thirty, err and I went into their apartment
through the patio doors. The three children were all you know
dressed you know in their pyjamas, you know they looked
immaculate, you know they were just like angels, they all looked
so happy and well looked after and content and I said to Kate,
you know it's a bit early for the you know, for the three of
them to be going to bed, she said ah they've had such a great
time, they're really tired and you know err so I say, you know I
can't remember exactly what, what you know the night attire,
what the children were wearing but white was the predominant err
colour, but you know just to reinforce they were just so happy,
you know seeing you know obviously Gerry wasn't there but they
were just all, just so at peace and you know they looked like a
family who'd had such a fantastic time and err yeah then I left
there, went and got my stuff, went back to the tennis courts and
then err there was me, Matt and Russell and I think Gerry played
a little, for a little while but he decided that he'd, he'd
played enough tennis for that day and err was going back and so
it left with me, Russell and err Matt and err Dan who was the,
the you know the tennis coach from Mark Warner.
Err so we played some tennis and you know we were having a good
knock and then it was getting a bit late so err we, you know we
left the tennis courts, went back to our respective partners to
get ready to go out, you know it was, it was, you know certainly
after half past seven that we'd, you know we'd left the courts,
perhaps even a bit later than that. Err when I got back err I
think because Fiona had done a lot of babysitting and left me
playing tennis she said well I'm gonna go for a very quick run
so she went for a run on the beach, you know, err got the kids
ready, bathed, got them ready for err to go to bed but again you
know as we'd got back late err from the tennis courts you know
the whole time err for that evening was not, you know later. And
then we just got ready to go and by the time Fi had got back
from the run we'd all had showers, we were all ready to go and
the girls were asleep and we were happy to leave the apartment,
it was you know it was sort of gone quarter to nine. Err we
walked down, the three of us, err you know to the Tapas area err
we bumped into Matt, he was walking err back to the apartment
and err you know he was, he was, you know semi-jokingly said oh
I've come to check because you've taken so long and you know
which actually transpired that they were quite err getting
agitated because you know the time the table was booked at half
past eight and you know it was approaching nine o' clock and you
know they thought it was, it wasn't appropriate that we weren't
there you know as early as we should have been. So then Matt
carried err back, you know, to the apartment and we went to the
table. Err when we sat, sat down I err sat next to Gerry and err
you know of course the next few minutes just started chatting to
Gerry and you know I said to him you know this is you know has
been one of the best days I've had in a long time you know and
we were just chatting about what we'd done and he was
reciprocating just saying you know what, what a fantastic day
they'd had, what a fantastic week it was and you know just a
general consensus was that you know it was just a fantastic
time. Err again I was aware that err you know that other people
were leaving the table, err I know that err the, err between
Russell and Jane they were leaving the table err to look after
It transpired that at some stage she'd been unwell and err Evie,
sorry then Russ, so Russell was basically, was missing the part
of the main course and then Jane went you know and ate hers and
then disappeared off to take over so we all you know I think
made the same joke that Jane said oh I've gone to relieve you
know Russell and you know that's, and then you know I remember
the other people that night you know again it's in part of the
things that we discussed after but you know I was sort of aware
as well that there was, rather than all just checking on their
own they were just cross-checking as well but still you know
very err frequently. Err and then you know it got to obviously
when Kate, Kate left, I hadn't realised that she'd, you know,
left the table again just busy chatting, then Kate came back
just after ten o' clock, you know absolutely distraught err you
know just, you know her face I'll never forget. It was a face of
someone's child who had been taken and you know and very clearly
said she's gone, she's you know, she's gone, you know and there
was a disbelief on our face you know ah you know you must be
mistaken, what, and then you know just looking at her we just
all err left the table, rushed over to her and as we were
walking up towards the flat she said err you know they've taken
her and it was, you know, and I know there's been a controversy
about what was actually said but you know that is very
accurately what had been said. Like I say, as I say you know you
could just never forget her face and those words, and err as we
were, you know, approaching their apartment I was just saying to
I said well look how do you know that is the case, and err you
know again I, I can't remember the exact words then, but I was
very interested in finding what the state of the apartment was
like when she'd got there to see who'd left err doors open or
etcetera. And from my point of view you know the things that
were, I think it was really pertinent to me was that there was
two, there was two gates on the back entrance from that
apartment. There's the gate which is immediately bring, you know
brings you on to the err the road and then there was another
child gate, that was at the top and I, you know, and given the
fact that the front door was shut I was just saying well what
was the state of those two gates, were those gates open when you
went up or were they shut, and she was adamant that those two
gates were shut. Well you know there was two possibilities,
she'd either been taken or she'd wandered off, no child is gonna
wander off and shut two gates behind them so at that moment I
knew, although I didn't want to believe it, but I knew that
she'd been abducted. Then you know obviously pretty much I
think, you know, people that pretty much the same as me you know
it's a shock, you know ah because you're, you know, you're still
not wanting to believe what, what the obvious is and you know so
we, you know we, we went, you know went to the apartment err you
know and I didn't actually enter too much into the room but I
walked to the edge and you know there was, you know the twins
were in their cots, err they were in you know parallel, there
was you know I could see, you know I think they were much
further into the room but you know I could see Madeleine's bed
and then you know it was just like all hell broke loose. You
know we, you know we didn't know what to do, we went running
around you know err the safety of my own you know children, you
know I started, you wanted to check that your own two are
alright so I, some say I ran up to our apartment and checked
they were alright. Dianne had err had said, Fiona had asked
Dianne to stay at the table, at the Tapas just in case err you
know Madeleine wandered by or you know and thought that was the
best place and I say at some stage I went back and asked Dianne
to just, could you go and stay with the children. I did a sweep
of the err the pool err and the area you know immediately around
err the Ocean Club, then met up with Matt and err Russell and
you know I remember saying right what, you know, what we gonna
do and Matt was saying right we've gotta try and be you know
systematic here err you know, right if you, you want to go off
in that area and I'll go down to the Ocean Club reception and
you know ask them to call the Police and so you know I, I
started venturing up towards the err Millennium where we'd eaten
and it was just so quiet and there was nothing going on that way
and I just thought oh you know, and I again I was just building
up hope that she'd ran off err you know I actually went on a
search and I went down past the Supermarket,
I went down towards the err seafront, you know went along the
whole length of the err beach looking under you know err beach
huts and etcetera, just you know and shouting Madeleine, any
people that we saw we explained, but also in the melee there was
err other people err sorry going back to the apartment so was
popping in just to you know, to see what's happening, had the
Police arrived err you know just to see who was, you know,
thinking that some, you know, body would take charge of the
situation and err Mark Warner staff had err grouped together and
they were err you know trying to help the situation. Err one of
the Mark Warner err ladies was staying with, in the apartment
with err with Kate, you know Fiona stayed there, there was
people you know popping in and out. There was a lady I think who
I believe she came from the flat who ended up, you know, coming
in towards their apartment as offering help and you know the
next recollection really is that you know the Police, there was
two Policemen who err arrived who I believe were from the GNR,
err you know it felt you know quite some time before they got
there, err I think there was a language barrier, the err one of
the receptionists from the Tapas area, Sylvia, she was trying,
actually no it wasn't Sylvia, it was the lady, one of the ladies
who we, you know, I can't remember her name, who was trying to
communicate you know between us and we were trying to convey
that she's been abducted and we, we got a computer err printer,
we'd got a picture of Madeleine so that it could be distributed
as quickly as possible. We were trying to impress the importance
to the, to the err two Policemen err that you know that she'd
been abducted, that you need to close off all the roads and that
you know, that this is an abduction and you know at that was
basically the sequence of events up to that stage. Err we then
you know, did some more searching, went around, you know,
Mark Warner staff, went to different areas just, I didn't know
whether she'd ran off and, you know obviously nothing, you know
nothing transpired and then as time lapsed then there was some
Police from err Portim' arrived, two plain clothed Police, there
was some other Police in the background, whether they were from
Portugal I don't know, you know they were just hanging back and
then err the two Portuguese err Detectives wanted to you know
have time with Kate and Gerry and just specifically question
them. Err you know I made err a phone call at some stage in the
evening to err Fiona's dad back in the UK who I've got a lot of
respect for and has given me very, a lot of very good advice
because you know you certainly would never have believe that you
will find yourself in a situation err like this and you know
there was very able people who were there, you know. Everybody
who was out there you know was very responsible and people that
I would turn to but under the circumstances I don't think anyone
functions err particularly anywhere near a hundred percent and
you know just looking to try and get some advice from someone
outside the situation because you know we just didn't feel that
we could get this message across to err to anybody that she had
00:17:28 Reply "Err so then you know the Police were with err
you know Kate and Gerry, you know chatting to them and you know
looking at the apartment, etcetera, and they, you know I felt
that they had been probably around for about an hour and then
Matt met up with err with Kate and Gerry after. Me and Gerry you
know I'm not sure what time it was, it was you know between
three and four o' clock when, again looking for her. We went
down err through past the Ocean Club reception, we went down err
to the beach and in between all this you know Kate and Gerry
were just breaking down you know just their behaviour was, you
know was never questioned or did I ever think there was anything
strange about you know their behaviour and how they would, they
would act, you know in such a set of circumstances and you know
Gerry's a very stoical person and you know, I think you know its
the way that he's conducted himself over the past few months you
know, and he broke down with me on the front, you know. You know
just very obviously a broken man, and you know we spent some
time you know, not long, I was trying my best to console him, we
went back then to the err the apartment, you know it's, by
around about four, four thirty in the morning you know there was
nothing else that you know that we could do. The Police had left
err the twins had been, at this stage, moved into err into our
apartment, and we made beds up on the floor for Kate and Gerry
in our apartment and we must have, you know, err gone into
bedrooms around about you know four, four thirty around that
time. We err slept for a couple of hours, we woke up to find
that you know Kate and Gerry had already been out looking you
know err for Madeleine err and then we were obviously waiting
for things to happen, you know, quite frustrated, and err you
know and then certain people arrived outside again you know
from, from the err Police and err at that stage err yeah I,
I was talking with Robert MURAT. He was err somebody that I
would not a hundred percent say that I saw the night before but
there was somebody who was also err who was translating for us
that evening who I you know briefly chatted to, stood next to a
Policeman, that I you know thought to be Robert MURAT but I
would never say conclusively that that was Robert MURAT. And
then but I just said I'm not, in my mind, I'm not dealing with
him I'm getting much better with the other lady you know because
they were just, you know pontificating around the area and I
just wanted direct answers I didn't want someone just talking
generally around the situation. And then err so there's me and
Kate, we were just waiting outside seeing what was happening and
err so then as I say Robert MURAT introduced himself, he said he
was err you know somebody who's re, you know, was living out
there, was originally from the UK, that he'd got a daughter who
was a very similar age to Madeleine and that they looked very
similar. He said that he'd been involved with something err you
know major back, back home err I thought he said Norfolk but
again I'm not a hundred percent sure on that, and you know at
this stage, you know I, there was no, he was very over familiar
and wanted to be helping the situation and that's all I would
say, I wouldn't say any more than that. And then the err Police
you know it transpired that they were going to interview us and
you know so then we, we ended up going to the station. I was
with Kate, err there was Gerry, err Matt, you know I can't be a
hundred percent else, sure who was there, and you know so I
always spent quite a lot of time with Kate during the hours of,
of err Friday and again you know everything that she was like,
you know, was someone whose daughter had been taken. You know we
were, and he, we were sat outside err one of the rooms err where
they had err like TV footage coming in from I don't know where,
and there's a story coming back that there had been a sighting
of Madeleine at one of the petrol stations err you know Kate was
eager, you know wanted to know more about, you know where have
you seen her you know.'
00:22:37 Reply "It was just''
Reply "It was just, you know, there was, there just no, there
was nothing that she did that I thought was unlike someone who
had not had their child abducted and there was everything that
I'd expect to be.'
1485 "The way
Reply "The way she reacted err you know obviously we were, we
were interviewed that, that day and you know we had very little
sleep, you know we were very tired, the interviews, and that's
my real recollections of that.'
period. Anything else''
Reply "Err, with any specifics prompts or''
1485 "No, just
making sure that you know''
done, you've remembered everything you possibly can that's all.'
Reply "Yeah. I'm sure if I chatted more to you I'd probably
1485 "Well all I
was gonna do is I was gonna go back to, I was gonna try and take
you in stages through you know your recall just to see whether
it could prompt anything else really, and what I want to try and
do is go back to you know the Tapas bar really.'
further back than that I want to go back to the beach.'
you said that you were on the beach, you was windsurfing.'
1485 "And you
spotted Matt and Russell.'
1485 "On the
1485 "Something happened on the catamaran where Matt fell in.'
1485 "Do you
know about that''
00:24:15 Reply "Yeah I mean that was a topic of conversation
that we had at the table, you know, because Matt is the
experienced sailor of the two of them and err Russell err you
know hadn't done a great deal of sailing and catamarans are not
particularly easy I understand err to sail and err Matt had gone
overboard and Russell then had to get the catamaran back to pick
him up so that was err you know a story of amusement at the
Reply "Err I didn't actually see that happen you know.'
Reply "But you know I certainly saw them out there, err on the
1485 "Yeah, what sort of time, excuse me it's getting a warm in
here, what sort of time was that that you saw them''
Reply "You know I'd say, I'd say you know roughly around three
o' clock but very roughly.'
1485 "Yeah very
Reply "Err you know I, generally our girls slept in the
afternoon say between two and four and err so that'd be the time
that I'd have gone out there and I was out there for a couple of
hours you know err the, I've done a great deal of windsurfing
and you know the conditions were very good.'
Reply "Err so as I say we were out there for a couple of, I was
out there for a couple of hours.'
1485 "So the
girls went to bed at, woke up about four, so you think it would
have been after four that you'd have gone down to the beach
00:25:34 Reply "Err well no because I mean like usually like
while they were asleep it's a good time to do you know
activities and you know someone could stay behind, look after
the children so err Fiona, and I think Dianne, had both stayed
behind and you know I said well I'll go get a, get a''
Reply "A windsurf.'
1485 "Right. So
did you walk down to the beach on your own then''
Reply "Yes, as far as I remember I think Matt and Russ had
gone, gone already, gone down before me.'
1485 "And did
you see anybody on your way down''
1485 "Your group
Reply "I can't remember.'
1485 "And when
you got down to the beach was the beach busy''
Reply "Err not, not horrendously, no. I mean there was some
other windsurfers there err you know I remember when I was out
windsurfing you know seeing other people windsurfing as well.'
Reply "But you know, again, it wasn't particularly busy.'
1485 "How long
do you think you stayed out there for''
Reply "I think I was probably out there the best part of a
couple of hours.'
1485 "So we're
saying around about six o' clock ish, would that be about
Reply "Err well I mean we were probably, as I say, windsurfing
I was windsurfing around two to four o' clock, then we had the
girls come down so there was some playing on the beach.'
Reply "Then we went for something to eat and then we left the
err restaurant and err you know, I hadn't got a watch on me, I
hadn't you know I hadn't got a mobile, all we had was the camera
which you know as I say the time on that suggests that we left
the restaurant err you know after six o' clock, so you know just
Reply "The time that I thought we'd finished you know''
00:27:23 Reply "Water sports would be around four o' clock,
then a bit of time on the beach and then you know your meal,
which would take an hour, which seems to fit in with the, you
know the timescale of events.'
1485 "So who did
you leave on the beach when you, when you walked up''
Reply "When, when we left we didn't leave from the beach we
left from the err restaurant.'
restaurant, but who did you leave at the restaurant''
Reply "Err the, basically the err the children and the ladies
that stayed behind, err just to finish off there and err and
then we, you know Fiona said to me we'd better get going if
you're gonna miss all the, you know any activities err so we
said right well we'll go, we'll get up there and you know play
1485 "Yeah, when
you say the ladies, that was Fiona and''
Reply "Yeah, Jane and Rachael, yeah.'
1485 "Right, and
the respective children''
Reply "Yes, yes.'
1485 "Okay, and
who did you walk back to the Ocean Club with''
Reply "Err there was Russell and Matt. As I say I can't, can't
remember what hap, whether they went, we peeled off and they
carried up to the apartment and I said oh I'll just go down to
the tennis, you know, I can't remember exactly what happened at
that stage, but I know I went and spoke to Gerry.'
1485 "So on your
way back what route would you take on the way back' There's a
map for this one.'
Reply "Yeah, we''
"Unfortunately the map doesn't show the beach, it'll show the
proximity going back to the apartment block. Which way is the
beach' If you imagine, or if you look at, that's, there's the
1485 "So that
would have been Kate and Gerry's apartment.'
1485 "So you'd walk round there from your Tapas, so which way
would the beach be''
Reply "Okay, so, sorry that's the, is this the Tapas here''
1485 "That's the
Reply "Yeah, so our apartments would be about here so err you
know we went, crikey, the Ocean Club is there I presume, does
that say Ocean Club' Yeah.'
1485 "The Ocean
1485 "I think
that's the Ocean Club in general.'
Reply "Yeah the main reception part sorry, so we, we would walk
past here, this is the Supermarket I presume, here.'
Reply "You'd walk past that way. There's err you know we'd go
along past the err Ocean reception down and then there was a
road which kind of like quite a steep road which had err there
was a small Supermarket there.'
Reply "There was err a pub there which I think was quite
popular with err you know locals and holiday makers and that,
that road led you right down and at the end of the road is the
err restaurant. Now, you know, I wouldn't say every time we
walked back that way, there, there was another route that you,
we, we cut through as well but I, I'm pretty sure that night we
walked up that way and round because I know we walked past the
00:30:14 Reply "But err''
1485 "Okay, but
how long would that generally take you''
Reply "How long' Err I'd say, yeah ten fifteen minutes walk.'
1485 "So when you got back to the apartments or the complex.'
the tennis courts there.'
presumably what you're saying is you walked up with Matt and
Reply "Yeah, yes.'
1485 "That way.'
Reply "As far as I can remember''
Reply "That, you know, I just seemed to have got the images of
walking past the reception.'
Reply "Well the only way we could have walked past the
reception is if we'd have gone that route.'
Reply "So that's what I'm basing my err recollection on.'
1485 "Did you go
straight then to the tennis courts''
Reply "Yes, I think I did, I think I'd gone straight there to
chat with Gerry just to check that, you know, what was going on
and everything and then went err went back to see Kate after.'
1485 "And what
was Gerry doing''
Reply "Err Gerry had been, you know, playing you know tennis
already, he was having a good err game and I think there was you
know, and there were a couple of the other tennis players who
had specifically gone out there on a Mark Warner holiday to play
tennis and you know Gerry was, you know, getting a lot out of
the week from the tennis and made friends with those people and
he was having a good game with them. Err so you know he would
basically be playing tennis.'
1485 "Yeah, and
at what point did you have the conversation with him' Did he
stop the game or did you speak whilst he was playing''
00:31:48 Reply "I can't remember, I can't remember. I, you
know, in my mind, you know, he stopped playing and you know but
I can't remember if I'm perfectly honest.'
1485 "And how
long did you stay and watch the game for''
Reply "Err all I remember is I was having a, you know, a brief
conversation with Gerry, err you know and then you know I went
back, I didn't actually stay there for too long because of the
time, you know, was ticking by err but again these are, you
Reply "Yeah, recollections rather than you know whether there
was anything in between, there could well have been.'
Reply "So where were you going then' Presumably you weren't
going to play tennis were you' When you left the beach, what
Reply "Yeah, oh yes that was always the intention and that's
what Fiona was saying, look if you're actually gonna do anything
tonight you'd better get yourselves up there and it's getting
quite late so that was, you know, that's the reason we'd all
gone ahead because we waited till the children had finished
eating and err got in the prams and got up there, you know it
takes another five ten minutes on top walking back with them,
err then you know we'd have lost the opportunity. Err again,
presuming that you know the tennis was usually around six
thirty, that if you know, if we're leaving the restaurant you
know, quarter past six or whatever, around that time, that you
know if we'd leave it much longer with it taking ten minutes or
whatever to walk up just to start the tennis at half six, you
know we were already cutting it fine and I think as it
transpired we were playing tennis till you know even beyond
there, it was quarter to seven, or around then and err you know
if we'd have left it much later then we just thought well it's
gonna finish, so.'
"Right, were you going for a lesson or were you actually going
Reply "We were gonna play, there was obviously me, Matt and
Russ, and Gerry was making up the four, fourth err person.'
1485 "But he was
Reply "Yeah he'd already been playing and that's partly the
reason that he kind of like threw in the towel early and said ah
you know I've had, enough's enough, I've had a good day and err
but then we managed to get Dan, the pro, just to play a bit with
us err you know so that made up the four ball err just for a
1485 "So your
yourself, Matt, Russell and''
Reply "Well it started off with Gerry and we had a bit with him
and then Dan played a bit.'
1485 "And Dan,
Dan replaced Gerry then did he''
1485 "How far
through the game was that''
Reply "I can't remember.'
Reply "Err you know whether we played one, you know again this
is just, yeah usually we'd play a set and then change over so
most likely it would be Gerry played a set and then left, that
was most likely how it happened.'
1485 "Okay, and it was at what point that Gerry said to you go
and, would you mind checking at Kate''
Reply "Well I mean coming back from the beach I'd got no
equipment to play tennis you know, etcetera, so I had to go back
to my room to you know change into stuff appropriate for playing
tennis in, and err so he knew that I'd walk up that by and past
so he said oh why don't you err, you know can you just pop in on
the way, the way up, so it was on the way back from me picking
the stuff up.'
1485 "Right, so
you've walked past, you've walked past Gerry's apartment to get
Reply "No, you know it was, again whether it was, in my mind it
was on the way up that I'd popped in to Kate but it could have
been on the way back, again, I'm sorry.'
1485 "No, it's
Reply "For my vagueness.'
00:35:21 1485 "But either way you'd have had to walk past
because you go the roadside don't you''
1485 "So you'd
have had to walk past Gerry's''
1485 "Front door
twice wouldn't you''
1485 "Is that
Reply "So, the reason why I think it was more likely that I did
it on the way there was because I've called in through the err
patio, it kind of made more sense that I'd have walked in
through the gate and then up through the you know where the
sliding doors are to say I'm here, rather than going up to my
apartment, coming back down, coming past the apartment and then
coming in the sliding doors.'
Reply "Because what I would have done is I'd have got changed
and gone downstairs and then knocked on the front door because
that, you know that would have made more sense rather than going
all the way round and''
1485 "Yeah, course.'
Reply "So that's in my mind why it makes more sense that it
was, that that was on the way up.'
1485 "Right, so
how long did you spend in your apartment before, I know you, I
appreciate that you can't recall whether it's going or coming.'
likelihood is that it's on the way.'
1485 "How long
did you spend in your apartment''
00:36:24 Reply "I mean again, we've you know, we've chatted
about the timings and everything and you know looked at the
photographs and you know, you know we were leaving about quarter
past six from the err restaurant, we'd gotta walk up there, ten,
fifteen minutes, conversation with Gerry, conversation with
Kate, you know that's another five, ten minutes on to your ten,
fifteen minutes walk so you're talking twenty five minutes, so
that's taken you to twenty five to, twenty to seven, well you
know we were certainly playing tennis for a, you know the best
part of an hour err so you know it couldn't have been long that
I was in the apartment, you know a matter of minutes.'
Reply "You know just to pick the kit up and, and then go back
1485 "Did you
have your own racquet''
Reply "I didn't, no, I was using the, err Mark Warner's
Warner's, okay. I just want to revisit the going and seeing Kate
before we move on.'
and the reason why I've kept it separate is because I want you
to just think now.'
imagine, remember what you saw.'
1485 "Did you
open the door, slid door' Or was it already open' Or''
Reply "Err I think it was already open, I think it was already
open. Err you know, as I say, I walked up there, Kate was you
know I say looking very relaxed and err I say a comment to her I
said well crikey it's early, early for them to be getting ready
you know for bed, as I say she said ah no, I've had such a good,
you know such a good day and afternoon err so you know, and
Gerry's just obviously finishing off playing tennis and err so
you know hopefully try and get them down and as I say we were
just, you know I, I know, it does sound bizarre but I just
looked at the three of them and I couldn't, you know they were
just so well presented and so clean and immaculate it was, you
know I was, and you know they just looked such healthy children,
err you know, there's, there's you know nothing that normally''
00:38:36 Reply "Triggers in my mind like that but it was just
how well that they looked and err''
1485 "Try to
remember where in, where they were in the apartment.'
Reply "Err, I
mean the, the time that I was there err you know all, all of
them err all the children and Kate were in the, err as soon as
you go through the patio doors err you know they were all in the
immediate area you know in front of you, err that was the area
that they generally, you know when I saw them, so I didn't, no I
didn't go any further into the apartment, you know it was just a
conversation that I like, you know walked into the, you know
through the French doors, I went into the lounge err you know
the open plan area and err you know just had a brief
conversation, you know things started off by as I say, saying
about the, how well they looked and you know, it's early to get
them ready for bed and then I said oh Gerry's, you know just
finished over there, we're going over to play a bit of tennis,
err I probably said is there any problems with that and she said
ah no, no fine, you know carry on, and err you know perhaps a
bit more of a conversation err but you know it, it wasn't many
minutes that I was, was there.'
00:39:55 Reply "But err certainly enough time just to see, you
know, certainly the apartment, there was nothing that was
untoward, that was you know err the children all looked
extremely happy, there was no, you know signs of any problems
with err you know Kate, you know or indeed the relationship that
Kate had got with any of the three children. None of the
children had been told off, none of the children looked like
they were you know in trouble for anything, you know they were
err still all talking and playing around. Err so you know it was
just a very err transient you know that I'd gone in there, but
as I say it just struck me how well they all looked.'
Reply "And content I suppose is the other word to use.'
1485 "Did you
actually go into the apartment''
Reply "I did.'
1485 "Or did you
do the conversation from the door''
Reply "No, definitely was inside the apartment, you know
whether it be two or three steps into the apartment or you know
however many, but I was definitely in the apartment.'
"Okay, so now what I'm gonna try and ask you to recollect, what
everybody was wearing.'
Reply "I'm afraid that is, you know I'm, I cannot recall at
all. I know that's, you'd think that'd be an obvious thing to
remember, I cannot remember. As I say the, from the children
point of view predominantly I can remember the, you know, white,
but I couldn't say exactly what they were wearing. Err''
1485 "But could you remember what Kate was wearing for
Reply "I can't, no.'
1485 "And did
you actually set eyes on each individual child''
Reply "All three children I saw, yeah.'
1485 "And were
they standing up' Sitting down''
Reply "Err they were generally standing up, yeah.'
1485 "Did they
actually acknowledge you''
Reply "Err oh yeah, you know I'm very sure that if you'd have
asked them, you know that evening or the next day they'd all say
ah yeah, I popped in. You know I, you know I did know the
children very well, we'd all you know, met up many times before
err you know I, you know again I'd be playing with Madeleine you
know in the, err the play area err you know during that week,
you know lifting her up, twizzing her round and everything, I
knew her that well, you know, to do that, and as I say err she'd
definitely know who I was and certainly, as I say, just to
reinforce that she looked very happy.'
1485 "Yeah. Was
that the last time you saw Madeleine''
00:42:39 Reply "It was.'
1485 "How many
minutes, you said as a matter of minutes and then you went back
and then you played tennis.'
1485 "I'm gonna
pin you down and ask you how long you think you were in there
for. I know you say minutes.'
Reply "In their apartment, it, it, I'd say three minutes, five
1485 "Three to
1485 "So then
you step back out, did you leave the doors open or did you close
Reply "Err I couldn't remember. You know, again, I've got the,
in my mind that the doors were open when I went in and I
probably would have just walked out back that way, you know, it
still, I mean it's still relatively nice outside, it was light
and everything so err you know I, I, whether they kept the door
open it's just nice when it's the end of the evening you know,
sorry, you know the end of the afternoon, but if I'm perfectly
honest the answer to that question is I can't remember.'
1485 "Okay. So
then you went back and then you played, you played a game for
about an hour''
1485 "You think
from seven, from about seven till about eight''
Reply "Yeah, I mean it must, I mean it was before, I mean we
got back before eight o' clock err you know so perhaps just
before seven, err sorry, err yeah just before seven so it was
just before eight o' clock. As I say when I got back I think I
was cutting it fine and Fiona was still keen to go for a run and
we started to get everyone ready for bed.'
Reply "And err so it was, as I say, about an hour but certainly
we'd finished before eight o' clock.'
"Okay, and when you finished, I'm just trying to put this in
order here, when you actually, when you finished and you went
back to the apartment, did you say anything to Gerry about,
about the fact that his family were fine' Or''
Reply "Yeah, err yeah, I haven't mentioned this before, but
yes, yeah I'd certainly, when we met up I said oh yeah, you know
everything's fine there, you know probably along the lines of
you know you've got a bit more of a free pass you know you can
carry on for a bit longer, Kate's fine without everyone you know
all the children are, are happy, there's no difficulties with
bath time or anything so you know, without actually saying all
that just conveying to him that you know I don't think you need
to err rush back, you've got a free pass for a bit longer.'
Reply "Err yeah.'
1485 "So was
that as soon as you got back to the, to the tennis courts''
Reply "Yeah that would have been when we got back.'
1485 "When you
got back to the tennis courts as opposed to at the end of the
Reply "Yeah, yeah, yeah.'
1485 "Okay, and
was he fine with that''
Reply "Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, again, you know it's difficult
with cameras and everything, you don't want to sound (inaudible)
or anything, but you know he's a very sorted person, a very
caring person and that's the kind of thing, you know he's very
Reply "And you know he will make sure everything's fine and
sorted before you know the, the, he'd carry on and do something
for his own benefit if you like. So you know he was certainly
one to, he would have wanted to know before you know
"Okay. We've talked, you've talked about you know, you've gone
back and you've got ready and Fiona's gone for a run. I'll move
on to, you know, the time that, because you'd already discussed
about going, leaving the apartment, the, you know, the situation
how you'd left your doors and you know.'
Reply "Mm, yes.'
intercom and all the rest of it. I'm just gonna move on to when
you actually got to the Tapas, you said that you passed Matt on
the way down.'
1485 "Whereabouts did you pass him''
1485 "Can you
Reply "Yeah, the err where's, this is the entrance here into
the Tapas area.'
Reply "Err my recollection was that we were just got, you know
we were round there, I thought we'd actually entered into the
Tapas bar to just''
into the complex''
Reply "Just, just into the complex, but certainly we hadn't
made it yet to the swimming pool but it was just, just about
Reply "Err yeah.'
"And what time do you think that was''
Reply "Err we were, we were just before nine, you know just
before nine o' clock err we yeah we went between quarter to and
nine o' clock.'
1485 "And then
you sat down, after the comments of course that you''
Reply "Yes, yeah.'
1485 "Who was
there when you got, when you got to the table''
Reply "Err well, as I say, Gerry was sat next to me, err on my
left, and then there was this choice of where Dianne was gonna
sit with err, err Matt and err Russell, so those people had to
be there, Kate was obviously there, Fiona had walked down with,
as well, and err and as for Rachael and Jane I, I cannot say a
hundred percent that they were there.'
1485 "What was
Gerry doing when you got there''
Reply "Err I, again my recollection is we sat down and I just
started talking to him, but I'm not sure whether that is
entirely correct, whether he was having a conversation with
somebody else before and then you know I just started talking
but my recollection we started, you know, not far after we'd sat
down we just started talking and you know, and I say we were
just saying, you know what we'd both done and what a fantastic
day that we'd had err you know and I know beyond the call of
this interview but you know I'd had a lot of stress you know
with work and over the last few years and you know it's, it's
you know two, two young children it's not been a particularly
easy time and you know and for me that was the first day in
many, many a month that I'd really enjoyed it and then Gerry had
reciprocated and said we also had one of the best days that we'd
had in many, many a month. You know that is my recollection of
the first thing that happened on that table, but just, whether
its because it was such a positive conversation that we'd had,
which override the fact that there was other things that had
happened before I wouldn't like to say but in my mind that was
the first thing that had happened.'
1485 "Yeah. So
did you notice that he got up to go and check Madeleine, or to
check his children''
00:49:10 Reply "Yeah, I mean I, you know I know the people who
left the table but I couldn't tell you what order they left in
and I couldn't tell you what the time is that they left. You
know, people have chatted about it, you know we've read about it
and I'm not prepared to say well I think this is what happened
because I'm sure my view's been tainted by, you know, what we've
read and what we've seen.'
Reply "Err but you know I'm, you know it's, I knew that
Russell, you know had had problems because Evie had been ill and
he, you know, had left the table you know for err, err quite a
few minutes because you know he was having to, you know he came
back saying oh he's had to clean the sheets and she'd been sick
and everything and then there was the issue of the err them
bringing out his food and they had to re-cook him, you know
another meal and then Jane had quickly eaten her meal you know
so that she could then leave the table so those things you know,
I'm sure, you know, I know happened and unfortunately I can't be
any more helpful in saying this was the time, this is how long
they were gone for. Err yeah I know that Gerry left the table,
you know, I can remember him, I remember him coming back to say
well you know, he wasn't left, you know he didn't leave at you
know an unreasonable amount of time, it didn't seem that he was
away for particularly long, you know he did make some comment,
which I know that if someone else was hearing as a group had
said yeah, I'll say yeah you know that's what he said, but I
can't remember err entirely, but err you know, the, the
conversation at the table in terms of other people leaving and
looking at the children was along the lines of you know that it,
and again it transpired later that I, that other people were
look, you know were popping in as an extra addition to what
other people were generally doing in terms of looking after the
err children and err you know when Matt came back I remember him
saying to somebody oh yeah I've looked at, you know and they're
fine you know and that was the way that the other families were,
were working it. Err so, you know, apart from Russell who was
away a little bit longer because you know what I've just
explained before, everyone tended to walk up there, then walk
back in a time which you would expect them to walk, walk up to
the apartment and you know there was no long gaps between
anything which you know wasn't you know explained. Err, so
"Do you recall Gerry coming back from his turn and then
commenting about speaking to Gez''
Reply "Err I, you know again, I think I do, and I know that
sounds very vague but you know again, just on the context of you
know what, what's been said about the conversation with Gez and
this is a very important part of the story, it's just difficult
to say what you, you know what you believe to have happened and
what you've read has happened.'
Reply "But I, you know I do remember some, something along the
lines that he'd had a conversation err with Gez but again you
know if you're chatting to someone else and you just perhaps
hear something at, at the side, err or you just look up and
listen to a bit and then you move onto the conversation.'
Reply "Err but some, yeah.'
1485 "Do you
recall Jane coming back from her trip' From her visit if you
like, shortly after Gerry had come back.'
Reply "I don't know.'
"And is there anything that sticks in your mind in relation to
what anybody's said when they'd come, apart from the one or two
people saying everything's fine, was there anything else that
you can think of that anybody said anything''
Reply "Err I mean there was nothing you know, I mean, I mean
when obviously Russell came back and explained what had gone on
and you know with, with Evie, err Matt, you know, had come back
and you know said everything's fine. Err Gerry, you know I, as I
say, I think he, I heard him mention that he'd spoken to someone
on the way back and I'm not sure if people triggered my memory
of that I could get that, that's it. When Jane came back there
was certainly nothing that she said that err you know led us to
be worried at that particular stage, you know, the conversation
was, was again, was you know oh Evie's okay and it was a sort of
shame that they you know, the situation there with Evie. Err and
you know the, the jokes that have been going on earlier and err
you know just, yeah generally nothing, nothing really stood
Reply "Had happened, err there was, you know nothing.'
"The fact that Jane had come back having seen a male carrying a
1485 "Could you
introduce that within your recollection''
Reply "I can, err it was never mentioned at that table when she
came back, err when we went, you know, looking for Madeleine
after err Fiona told me that she'd, you know, mentioned this to
Fiona and you know so it's, obviously Fiona's statement's
probably more important from this point of view exactly what she
said about it.'
Reply "But I know from Fiona that this was mentioned and I
think it was in the context that she was really worried saying
anything to Kate to, to upset her which you know looking from,
from people observing out, in at this, they'll probably think
well hang on, you think that someone's just seen, but you know,
again, it was a, a resort where there was a lot of children
around err very, it's a small friendly place and she just
thought it was one of the parents who you know was perhaps, you
know they'd be staying in one apartment and were transferring
their child back to another apartment.'
Reply "And really didn't think twice about it at the time and
that's why it wasn't mentioned then. But she definitely
mentioned it to me you know after Madeleine had been abducted
and you know on the, the following day before she'd actually
mentioned it to Kate and there was a, a newspaper report, I
think it was in the Telegraph err certainly one of the
newspapers anyway, that was sort of describing err Madeleine's
pyjamas and, and err Jane said that's not right, how did they
get that, well she said you know, that in, I don't know how they
get that information anyway, my recollections were this was what
she was wearing and described it you know differently you know
to what the, the, the press had, and that was before she'd even
seen Kate so you know, the strength of that argument is just
absolutely overwhelming, you know given the time frame err you
know of when Madeleine must have gone, gone, that you know and
for her to have described in detail the pull ups at the bottom
of the pyjamas err you know the colours, you know and the timing
is just, you know well, so.'
"How did she describe the child to you''
Reply "Err, the, from, again my, my recollection was more about
the, the description of the pyjamas not fitting in with the
description of the newspaper and if I was to say that she was
carrying the child you know like this, rather than like, like
that then, you know because again this is something that we've
talked about, you know, if she was abducted, you know, sorry if
you were carrying your own child any distance, to actually carry
a child like so is, it's hard work. You know, it's much easier
to carry a child like this and it's easier to keep them asleep
and support their head etcetera. So yeah that's something we've
chatted about since and you know I could say oh yes I'm a
hundred percent sure she said that, that they were carrying the
child like that, but I, again, I wouldn't be, be accurate. All I
can say is accurately I remember there was a, the err the
discrepancy with the pyjamas and that, you know, and then she
kept coming back to the turn ups which you know, which is very
unique about the err you know, the pyjamas so that was, you
know, you're in shock, you can't believe what's happened, you
know, you're, you're ninety nine, point nine, nine, nine percent
sure that this is what's happened but you're still not wanting
to believe what's happened.'
Reply "But you know and then you're looking for information to,
to try and fit in with what you thinks happened and then you
know when, when we knew that we just thought, you know, that is
it, that is who's taken her. Err you know and again, just for
the record, I mean Jane, I've known Jane for a few years, you
know, she's an extremely strong character, she's you know very
reliable and you know she speaks her own mind and you know, and
if that's what she has seen then you know I'm a hundred percent
sure that that's what she's seen.'
"Okay. Just in relation to, the reason why I ask you that is
because Jane has saw what she's saw and then she's come back to
the table and then you know one of the points I was trying to
raise with you as well was did you notice anything different in
her demeanour throughout the rest of the evening before Kate
raised the alarm''
Reply "Err not, not really I mean, as I say my general feeling
was about the problems that they were having you know, it's
difficult, you know err one of them was there and then the other
one was going and err you know just the logistics of the
situation, you know where I was actually sat, I wasn't directly
sat in a position that I was probably gonna chat to Jane
therefore you know, the people who were immediately round me
were the people more likely I'd chat to rather than chatting
across, you know, quite a reasonable size table. Err so I don't,
you know I don't really think, you know I, I noticed anything
different about Jane but whether, you know, there was or there
wasn't perhaps I wasn't in the best position there to, to
comment that, as I say my recollections were more of the
logistics, apart from with Evie not being well.'
Right, and again you've discussed what happened once Kate had
turned up and the exact words that Kate had said.'
1485 "Once the
alarm had been raised you said that you all got up and its, with
the exception of Dianne, everybody ran to the assistance.'
what did you do''
Reply "Err we, you know, we ran up err to the apartment, you
know, with, with err you know Kate and Gerry err and you know
for me, I just wanted to know, as I say, about the access to the
apartment, were those gates open, err because in my mind was
that if the front door was shut there was no, you know there
won't be, you know there was no way that she could have wandered
out that way and nor would they have gained access in that way.
Err also obviously the, the, the issue with the, the shutters
had been raised, was brought up err you know on the way up as
well and then I was asking about the gates being shut at that
back and she said well both gates you know were shut, so in my
mind, you know, that had ruled it out that Madeleine had err had
wandered off. Err you know, Madeleine's err, you know, was a
very bright child and you know it would just seem so
inconceivable that she would have wandered off you know,
especially you know, when she was sleepy you know, we put that
argument forward, but then you know sleeping chil, sleepy
children you know don't put, shut the doors you know behind them
and child gates, you know, so, so that was my initial thoughts
err and again you know we, we, I'm sure we went into the
apartment, just looked and you know, incredulously you know well
where, err where could she be, you know, you know we just looked
in the obvious err places and then err you know obviously Kate
and Gerry were just completely, you know, hysterical err you
know at this stage. Err and then we just, you know then we went
to do the sweeps around the place and I said, as I said before,
I went up to
look at our apartment to check, check the girls were alright and
you know, and the actual order that this all happened, you know,
it's just err a complete eye opener up for us to see you know
what other unfor, unfortunate people have been through just to
what a destabilising effect, you know, that circumstances has on
you or, and you know I, I think most people had a, you know,
idea of, pretty exactly what happened that day leaving but you
know after that I think people find it really difficult
generally to say exactly what they did and when. Err but as I
say we went err we went to the apartment and had a look round
and then err I had a look quite earlier on to see err whether
the, err girls were alright. I then at some stage went back to
see Dianne and say look can you just leave the table, just go
back to the apartment and then I had the sweep around the
swimming pool where the, err the kiddies pool is, I went to, I
just had a quick look at the tennis courts and just basically
swept around the, the area just to make, make sure you know
that, ah this can't, can't be what's happened,
she must have
you know, you just don't want to weigh up that option, it just
wasn't an option that could have happened but you knew it had
happened and err, and then as I say we spoke, me, Matt and
Russell, right come on we've got to have a bit more structure to
this, err you know, I'll, I'll you know so he went off down to
the Police Station and you know, you know we waited as I say for
the Police to arrive and we, our, I think it was in between them
arriving or when they arrived that I then went down and did that
sweep of you know, right down past the Supermarket err going
slightly to the side and then onto the front past where the
church is at the bottom. I looked, you know I say I looked in
all the rocks and you know just went along the whole beach
shouting out and identifying people. Err the, I say, the Mark
Warner people they were around there, we, you know as I say we
also at a very early stage we knew it was important that we got
a picture of Madeleine just to show people, whether it be local,
but, but we were also imploring the err the GNR to you know
close down and circulate this picture, err and that was, you
know that was something that Mark Warner team helped us set up
just in the, you know the Tapas bit there.'
01:04:57 Reply "Err then we were popping in and out of the
apartment err you know having conversations with Kate and Gerry
and err you know they were in communication with people back
home err you know Gerry was you know speaking to family, they
were chatting to err Paul's the priest who married them and Kate
was chatting to her mum you know err and it was just all kicking
off around really.'
1485 "You know
when you went into their apartment, what was the scene like' I
mean where was Kate and Gerry''
Reply "Err (sighs) I mean with, with err, you know I, Kate's
obviously very good friends with err Fiona and I'm, you know,
very good friends with Gerry so more likely I'd have probably
been with Gerry going through the options of what happened, or
you know where could she be and what, what's gone on here. Err
you know trying to work out err what had actually happened err
so I, I, you know we all went up to the apartment pretty much
together. I think, I don't know what, whether the other people
came in or not, I can only remember me, Fiona, Kate and Gerry
predominantly and the err lady from Mark Warner err who were the
main people who were in the apartment. Err yeah I certainly went
into err the doorway of that, the room where all the children
were staying you know and Sean and Amelie were still you know
sleeping, err you know and this is something that's, you know,
we've all kind of discussed you know amongst all the melee that
was kicking off they were just sleeping so, you know, contently.
Err and then you know the other area, the other areas I remember
going into Kate and Gerry's err bedroom with Gerry and he'd
perhaps you know fling a cupboard open and just have a look and,
ah you know and just shut the door and you know in a vein,
desperate hope that she might have been err you know in, in the
wardrobe or something, and then he, you know flung him, flung
himself on the floor and just you know kicking the floor and
just with, you know, she's gone, she's gone, err and then as I
say, I, I, after that I can't really say exactly, you know. We
kept meeting up at stages in the evening to, to try and appraise
the situation and you know what shall we do, err.'
"Did you hear Kate say to Gerry they've let her down''
Reply "Err, it's
a comment that I've heard her say since and you know, I can't
say that I specifically heard her say it that night. Err but you
know, so many emotions are flying through your mind at that
stage and you know certainly guilt was going through you know
their mind, err because it, you know, everyone was like
questioning themselves, you know, about you know what had
happened and you know I know that she certainly was, those
comments that she made along the lines of guilt for err you
know, you know not being there for her, without a doubt, but
specifically that phrase I wouldn't, you know I can't recall her
saying that but again, it's just a general underlying you know
nature of what she was saying but it was along the lines that
she, you know she had let her down, that you know when she, err
again whether it was that night or another night she said well
you know when she needed us we weren't there for her, you know
and that was, you know the general kind of things that she was
1485 "Yeah, did
she say that on the night then''
01:09:04 Reply "Err I say I don't know, I know that she said
Reply "Or implied those things but I can't tell you exactly
what the phrases were that she used but you know she felt that
they weren't there for the biggest time in her life when they
1485 "Yeah. Did
Fiona tell you that Kate had told her that Madeleine had woke up
the night before''
1485 "On that
Reply "Err I'm sure Fiona did tell me that night err and said
that you know she'd had a, a, you know that Madeleine had you
know woke, had been crying the night before and err you know
this was just, and that she'd mentioned it to her and you know
do you think we should be doing anything err differently, err
and you know Fiona mentioned that conversation and I'm sure, I'm
pretty sure it was that night err that she brought it up. Err
its, you know I, do you try and make people feel better because
you think, you know, who, who in the world would have thought
this would have happened to anyone, you know, it just doesn't
happen to you.'
Reply "Certainly and you know the last case of a child going
missing like this was you know ten years plus, you know, in
Corfu, and so you know when, when your child's been crying,
whether they you know they've have a bad nightmare or you know
they've, you know they've perhaps have had a dream and they're
crying a bit and you try and you know, and that's what you know
we were saying to Kate really, you know those were the things
that go through your mind.'
Reply "Rather than think ah well perhaps someone's tried to get
into the apartment, you know, but then you look back and then
the enormity of what you said does, you know gain momentum. Err
"What I've got here is a few questions from the PJ'S because
they wanted us to ask you''
1485 "A series
of questions and there may well be duplication of what you've
said but please bare with me.'
1485 "Now you've
answered the first one, it says what time did you return to the
beach club on May the third as you were coming from the beach''
1485 "So that's
where you said that you come from the restaurant.'
Reply "Yeah, yeah we'd come from the restaurant on the beach
and as I say we left there about eighteen fifteen, err at that
1485 "And where
did you go''
Reply "We went, I, I went up err went to see Gerry at the
1485 "So you
were at the tennis courts, who did you talk to''
Reply "Err just Gerry pretty much, you know, whether I made
comment to anyone else I don't remember that, just, I just
remember I talked to Gerry.'
1485 "Okay, did
you go to the MCCANN family apartment between six and seven'
Well, yes you did.'
1485 "And if
yes, why' You've already said that. Which route did you take'
You told me that. Time' You've told me that. Did you enter the
apartment' You've told me that. Who did you talk to' You've told
me that. Did you talk to Kate' You've told me that. Did you
notice anything unusual''
Reply "No, definitely not. It was err pretty much what I would
expect, you know, go into the apartment, there was certainly no
atmosphere, there was nothing, no disquiet between the children
or Kate, you know it was just very normal, just happy children
playing and ready for bed.'
"How long did the conversation take' Well you said between three
and five minutes. Did you see the children' Well yes you did,
you've said that, including Madeleine. What were the children
doing' Well you've said that they were just standing around.'
Reply "Mm, I mean they were interacting, playing a bit and you
know they're looking at me and perhaps have a, you know, but
Reply "Behaving normally for kids at that age.'
1485 "As the person who organised this trip were you aware of
the baby listening service' Well yes you were, but we discussed
that a bit earlier didn't we.'
1485 "Was this
available at night' Was it, could you remember what it''
Reply "Well the, the, the point, the, the service that they,
they offered there which was different to the other Mark
Warner's was that they had a, a drop-in err centre for want of a
better description err for the evening. So if you wanted to go
out for a meal you would take your child down to err the, the
reception, you know, there's an area down there you know
specific for that where they'd have the, the nannies who would
keep an eye on your children. You could go and have something to
eat and then you go and pick your child up err after. This, it
comes back to pretty much, you know, we'd gone there you know
with the same kind of, originally we were hoping that it would
be someone knocking the door, listening at the door and
everything's quiet and then move, moving on and that's what we'd
gone with the, think it would be. I did know before I went on
the holiday that that wasn't what it was going to be but we'd
gone on there adopting that that's you know how we were gonna
most likely do it, well that was one of the options anyway
depending on where the apartments were and everything. Now where
the, where the drop-in err creche in the evening was, was you
know it was a, you know a fair distance you know from where we
were staying err you know so, you know it wasn't certainly where
you ate down there and our, our complex or our apartments was
quite a bit away so it was nothing that we'd really entertain.
Secondly, all the children are, are you know very young and
wouldn't, would be sleeping at that time so it wasn't something
that we wanted to use because of the children, you know we'd
want them to be sleeping and we, you know they wouldn't sleep
particularly well down there and you know we thought what we
were doing obviously was, you know''
01:15:14 Reply "Was, was err reasonable. We were checking the
children more often than, than Mark Warner would do, not only
were they, it wasn't just a listening outside the door, people
were going in and checking the children so from that perspective
we felt we were doing more than they normally would do. Err so
from that point of view you know it, it was, you know, a bit of
a, not say inconvenience isn't the right word, but we were, you
know we knew what we going, what, what it was going to be like
when we got there and we thought what we were doing was, was
more than adequate than a lot of the Mark Warner centres across
Reply "So err you know we were aware there was a creche there
but just for the reasons that I've just said that's why we
didn't use it, so err you know and I know that's something
that's been picked up in the press and obviously Mark Warner you
know they want to put across that you know there, there is that
option for people if they were to go to that Mark Warner
Reply "But, but you know.'
"Were you aware by the way that during the course of the week
that Gerry and Kate had changed their methods of entering their
Reply "Err I hadn't at all, no.'
1485 "Right, the
next question then from the PJ'S is, did you travel to Portugal
with intercoms to monitor your children' Well you've said that
1485 "When you
travel with your children do you always use intercoms''
Reply "Err, I mean if we, if we were staying at somebody else's
house err you know and they were in the loft or whatever and we
couldn't hear the children crying then yes we would travel with
monitors. Err you know, you know, we, our child you know Scarlet
was one of the youngest children there so obviously the monitor
was you know, was extremely important, you know we wanted to see
if she was crying because you know she wasn't sleeping as well
as the elder child so at that, that time, monitors were very
important to us and if we were going anywhere where we thought
that we couldn't hear the children then you know, if they were
very young then we would use the monitors but they're now older
and the question's perhaps not as pertinent as it was err you
know eleven months ago. But you know, certainly around that time
we didn't make a habit of you know going and staying in some
resort or hotel and you know stick a monitor upstairs and off we
went, it was, you know, we don't go away that frequently.'
"Did you suggest an intercom to anybody else''
Reply "Err no I mean, I don't, you know I, I remember having
the discussion with Fi you know, Fiona, with what, what we were
gonna do but I didn't really discuss what other people were
gonna do really, you know, which comes back to the bit in the
line of questioning you asked me before, do you think everyone
knew about what the babysitting was like, and I'm sure I
would've said that. Err but no we didn't discuss monitors with
1485 "At the
apartment you stayed in with your family at the Ocean Club have
you ever left the windows and doors open''
Reply "Of the, of the apartment''
1485 "Of your
Reply "Err we, well I'd like to think that every time we went
out that all the doors were shut, we never knowingly left the
apartment with the doors or windows open and you know, it was
good having Dianne there because she's a very good safe, safe
for everything like you know she'd, you know, so not knowingly
did we ever leave them and to my recollection they were never
Reply "You know if we were in the apartment, different, but if
we left it then no.'
"Okay. Okay David it's time to get your phone out. Can I just
confirm what mobile phone number you have please''
Reply "Yeah, its ******************, . This is not the phone
that I had on the night. This is a, a new phone that I've had
since then, quite a few of the numbers I've transferred across.'
Reply "But I haven't got all the numbers that I originally had
on that phone.'
1485 "Okay. I'm
gonna go through a series of numbers and I want you to have a
look in your phone book and see whether you can tell me who they
1485 "The first
one, the phone number ends in, and I'll just give you the last
Reply "Will you just hang on two secs, this is a bit, okay.'
Reply "**** SA.'
1485 "And who's
Reply "Err he is err my, Fiona's sister LW, that's her
1485 "And what
sort of a relationship do you have with him''
Reply "Err a very good relationship. He is err someone that
I've known for many years, we've been to their wedding, they
came to our wedding, and err he's you know a very good friend.'
Then there's a series of one, two, three, four, five, six text
messages around about six p.m. on Friday.'
Reply "The Friday, yes, err the, these were all in relation to
you know what had been happening that, that, that day basically
and to get advice from S. Again, you know, a bit like I said
with err Fiona's err father, you know he's someone that I trust
very well who was not with us at the time who would, who could
think calmly and clearly and to just ask advice about you know
what was going on, what were they picking up in the UK err you
know what coverage was it getting, what, what, what did they
know was going on, you know, could they feed anything back, we
wanted to get any information that we possibly could, you know,
that was the conversation.'
"Okay the next number is, ends in **.'
Reply "**' I've err I've not got that one in.'
1485 "You've not
got that one in''
1485 "Again, there was a series of text messages around about
the same time on the Friday the fourth. There was err two calls
Reply "Around six o' clock''
1485 "Yeah, well
the calls were made between eight and nine in the morning.'
1485 "And then
there was between ten a.m. to six p.m. there's a series of eight
text messages, actually I'm lying, no I'm wrong, sorry, scrap
that, there was two, there was two calls between eight and nine
in the morning and then one text message, two text messages
around about ten a.m.'
1485 "Could you
have been at the Police Station that, the following day around
about that time''
01:24:38 Reply "I mean we didn't leave the Police Station the
following day until about eleven o' clock so that, I mean if
they were ten a.m. then that would have been before.'
1485 "But that
number's not in your book at all''
Reply "No, as I say whether it's just because it's not one I've
transferred across, because I've not got all of the numbers in
this phone that I've got in my other one. I, I mean I can
certainly get those for you.'
1485 "You may
well have to actually.'
Reply "Yeah okay.'
1485 "The next
number ends in ***. Sorry, that's S again, sorry.'
1485 "And again
there was quite a number of text messages, so you text him
1485 "Its okay,
they've put it in the saved box here.'
Reply "Oh right, so it's the same''
1485 "The same
yeah. Okay, we'll move on, this is a small number and it, it is
Reply "So that's a local number''
1485 "I think''
01:26:10 Reply "Yeah, I mean err it may well have been SA gave
us a contact of someone that was a friend of the family in
Portugal who err could get us mobile phones because Kate and
Gerry you know hadn't got any contact, you know way of
contacting, their batteries were running out or something like
that so SAhad basically said err you know there's, there's these
people that we know there and you know that could have been it.'
because then there were two text messages sent about half past,
about ten o' clock on the Friday evening to that number.'
Reply "Oh to that number, well that wouldn't make sense.'
1485 "From that
number to your number.'
Reply "Oh, it could have been then, if they text me saying oh I
hope everything's alright, you've got the phones and everything,
that's the only thing.'
1485 "Okay, next
number I'd like you to look for please David is **'
01:27:13 Reply "That's gonna be my sister's' **''
1485 "** yeah.
It starts with, it's *''
Reply "Is it **.'
Reply "Yeah it's my mum's number.'
1485 "What town
Reply "What town is that' Err Rochdale.'
Reply "Yeah, in Manchester.'
1485 "And again,
there was a series of calls which are self explanatory I
Reply "Mm, yeah.'
1485 "The next
number could well be another relative but I'll check with you
anyway, it's **''
Reply "Yeah my sister's.'
Reply "Yeah, that's Market Harborough.'
number is a, I think it's a London number, it's o, two, o,
seven, and it ends its **.'
Reply "**' Can we just ring it' (Laughs).'
Reply "No. What time was that sorry that that was''
about, it's quarter past eleven or twenty three thirteen on the
fourth on the Friday night.'
Reply "At night''
1485 "Yeah. So
my, my recollection of ** is a London number if that helps.'
Reply "Yeah, I'll just have a little look. I, I can't remember,
I've got friends that are down in London which I haven't got her
number in here, whether she saw it and rang it I don't know. Was
it a long, long call or''
1485 "Err, yeah
it was quite a long call.'
Reply "Right, okay.'
1485 "But you
actually called the number.'
Reply "Yeah, okay.'
1485 "Okay, the
next number is, it's a mobile number and it ends in **'
Reply "Mobile number **''
yeah. **, and it ends in **.'
01:31:16 Reply "Err,**'
Reply "LL, whose a, you know, a friend of the family's.'
1485 "And what
was the nature of the, it was a text message at quarter past
eight, err quarter past six on the fourth.'
1485 "Sent, I think it was sent from them to you.'
Reply "Yeah, it would have been oh yeah, seen, seen what's
happened out there, are you okay, you know I presume.'
1485 "Okay the
final one is, well it ends in , **.'
Reply "**' The other thing is, is that err Fiona was using my
phone out there, she hadn't got her phone with her so some of
these calls may be''
1485 "This one's a call.'
Reply "But if she got the number and the put it in, she might
know what it is, but yeah.'
1485 "Yeah, yeah
I accept that.'
Reply "**. Sorry ** was it''
Reply "Let's have another look, no I don't think I've got that
Reply 'It's quite close together all this to all this, but no I
can't see that one.'
okay well that's the end of the phone traffic, one fin, one
question or one person I'd like to speak to you about is Yvonne
MARTIN. Do you know a person called Yvonne MARTIN''
01:34:03 Reply "Yvonne MARTIN''
Reply "Right. Oh, okay, err there was a lady who was there on
the err when me, when me and Kate were waiting on the err
morning you know after Madeleine had disappeared err there was
err a photographer who was living in the area who err approached
us and was just saying ah I used to work for the Daily Mirror,
he gave his card and then this woman came up and started err
chatting to us who err essentially just said ah I've got many
years of experience you know and just started to really try and
again force their selves in the situation a bit rather than just
saying look I'm around if you need me err you know, so basically
I just said it wasn't you know appropriate at the time, could
she leave us alone and err but I must admit I didn't know what
her, that was you know, that was, and she was, you know she said
she was trained for many years as a Social Worker and was out
there now err and was offering her help, but not in a
particularly helpful way and she appeared you know, and that was
on the you know the morning, I don't know somewhere perhaps
between nine and ten o' clock in the morning. Err you know I'm
sure, sure she'd been at, you know, she popped in there and you
know she was around the area, she was seen again, but I mean I
didn't have any more contact with her then but at the time it
wasn't particularly helpful. Err I can't really say any more
"Did you know her before that meeting''
Reply "Err no.'
1485 "Did you
speak to the MCCANN'S about it''
Reply "Err we, yeah we spoke in the context of you know that
was completely inappropriate the way that she was trying to deal
with it, it's like she was trying to council Kate there and then
in the thick of, you know, they're still trying to establish
what's going on and what was happening err so you know I spoke
to, you know I'm sure I mentioned her to Kate and Gerry you know
within a short space of time, you know within twenty four hours
of it happening. Err you know, just an example I, you know I was
with Kate for quite a number of hours where I was sat with her
at the err Police Station in Portim' and everything and you know
weeks later she said who was I sat with, you know, and it was
that, its that kind of thing you know I'm sure you know I spoke
to them about it there and then within twenty four hours but err
you know nothing was really mentioned a great deal about her
later on or you know it was the, the, you know pretty much you
know the conversation was dealt, you know dealt with it there
and then and it wasn't, you know, perhaps I mentioned it to the
others saying you know and if she popped up here and there you
know other people might have mentioned her but she wasn't
something that kind of like was the focus of the conversations
that we had subsequently.'
01:37:15 Reply "Err for that morning.'
1485 "Did you
advise the MCCANN'S to turn to her''
Reply "Not at all, no.'
1485 "Not at
Reply "Not at all. She was someone I'd certainly say to, to
keep clear of you know and I, and I think pretty much I was
saying look you know, appreciate your concern at this stage but
you know it's not the right time to be talking to her, if you
want to leave a card then you know perhaps there might be a time
in the future but you know can you just leave us please, and
that was you know the basics of the conversation that I had with
her. Err you know her timing was just completely off, err you
know there was, I say there was someone else who visited on the
night that she was abducted, I think she was from the upstairs
and she was again you know trying to say there, there Kate,
you're alright, and again it was just completely inappropriate
Reply "I didn't think there was anything sinister about it I
just thought it was people who didn't really perhaps have an
insight into you know what has gone on and what was good timing
and what wasn't. I never really thought anything much more about
either of them.'
there's no more questions at this stage.'
1485 "What I'm
gonna do is I'm gonna take a short break, just take a bit of a
Reply "Yeah, yeah.'
1485 "And then
come straight back in with Gerry and Kate's questions.'
Reply "Yeah, okay.'
"Just before I finish, what we've been talking about on this
section of the interview, is there anything that you feel you
want to add that may be pertinent to the investigation''
Reply "Again, just to you know summarise in that you know not
many people find themselves in a situation like that and the way
that Kate and Gerry were, there was nothing to suggest that
there had been any foul play. They behaved so much as I would
expect someone in the situation they were in and the way that
their moods had changed from you know complete calm and serenity
and enjoyment, just turned completely to you know distraught and
you know that wasn't acting, that wasn't anyone, that was just
pure grief of the situation that they found themselves in.'
Reply "And you know and the change was like that, it wasn't you
know, err I don't think there's anything else I'd like to add at
that's fine, okay. It's two fifty nine, or fourteen fifty nine
and I'll stop now
01:40:00 The interview ceased at 1459 hours when the
tape recorder was switched off.
RECORD OF TAPE
RECORDED INTERVIEW Police Exhibit No IM25A
Person Interviewed: David PAYNE Number of Pages 35
Place of Interview: Force Headquarters, Enderby Signature of
Date of Interview: 11.04.08 Officer producing exhibit
Time Commenced: 1530 hours
Time Concluded: 1640 hours Duration of Interview: 70 minutes
Interviewing Officer(s) DC 1485 MESSIAH Tape Reference nos:
Other Persons Present None
Tape counter times Person speaking Text
00:00:05 1485 "Okay the video's now recording again. We're in a
third interview with yourself. We're at Force Headquarters
Police in Leicestershire. I am DC Ivor MESSIAH from
Leicestershire Police Major Crime Team and the date is Friday
the eleventh of April and the time I make by my watch is fifteen
thirty exactly. Could you just tell me who you are please''
Reply "I'm David PAYNE.'
1485 "Okay. I'm
just continuing in relation to you being a witness to, or, in
regards to the investigation into the disappearance of Madeleine
MCCANN, alright, and this is the third interview we're
it should be the last. Once again a series of questions, a lot
of open questions, take your time in answering and give me as
thorough answer as possible.'
1485 "Right, I
just, before I move on I just need to refer back to the last
interview just to clarify a couple of points.'
"One of the points is, do you recall you told me that when Kate
had come back to the Tapas and said''
1485 "What had
1485 "You'd said
that, you referred to some sort of, her face, you said the look
on her face''
1485 "Was, can
you remember what you said''
Reply "Err, how did I describe, I mean just you know the, it
was just a haunting face of someone who's you know discovered
what she discovered.'
Reply "It was just, you know, if you meet Kate now, you know,
you can see it, you can just see it in her eyes still. Err, I
mean, the only other way to put it, you know, there's something
missing from her life.'
Reply "But it was just, you know, the grief and the horror in
that face, you know.'
Reply "It was just err I'll just never forget it.'1
1485 "Yeah. But
there was a specific, I mean I'll, I can probably look at the
video at a later stage.'
1485 "And I just wonder whether you can remember what you said'
It was quite impactive what you said.'
00:02:16 Reply "Err, sorry.'
1485 "No' That's
okay. Can you recall shortly after that she went running off to
the apartment block and she was saying they've taken her''
1485 "Is that
what you said''
Reply "Mm, yes.'
taken, they've taken her''
Reply "She, you know, obviously there's what we've talked about
when, you know, it's portrayed in the press about what she said,
they've taken her, and that was definitely not, and that was,
you know, or unanimous across everyone we'd all said that was
not what she first of all said, you know, she's gone was you
know the first words that she said.'
1485 "She first
said that she's gone''
Reply "She's gone.'
1485 "And then
the second time she said''
Reply "And then, I mean, and then as we were walking up, err
and there's you know the exchange of conversation was you know,
was they've taken her.'
Moving on a little bit to Gerry and Kate, because they like,
because you know they're into tennis aren't they''
Reply "They are.'
1485 "They seem
to be playing tennis every day.'
Do you know whether they took their own tennis kit out''
00:03:23 Reply "Err no they didn't.'
didn't take the kit out''
1485 "But when
Reply "Oh sorry when you say the tennis kit''
1485 "When I say
Reply "I'm talking about the, err racquet and b*lls they didn't
1485 "Kit in,
you know, kit in general is gonna mean the attire and''
Reply "Err, did they have any specific tennis gear' You know
(inaudible) I don't, I, I don't recall that they had anything
specific you know to play, you know, we all have what we ha,
call tennis gear you know, not the stuff that you probably go
swimming in and you know''
Reply "Which was appropriate to wear on a tennis court but they
weren't err you know they weren't water goers, you know they
weren't interested in the water sports side of things.'
Reply "So you know they knew there was the tennis side of it
and they'd gone along with the interest of playing, you know,
some more tennis.'
generally what would they wear to play tennis as far as you can
Reply "Err I've got the pictures, err, err yeah again, sorry I
1485 "Well would it be fair to say it would be t-shirts''
Reply "Oh yes, yeah.'
Reply "Err I mean again I think Gerry had a white, a white top
err I think he had a, you know, like a polo shirt.'
00:04:36 Reply "Err sleeveless, err I, I keep thinking he's got
white trousers err shorts sorry, but I can't remember.'
1485 "What about
a kit bag' Would they have a kit bag with them''
Reply "Err he certainly didn't have a great big tennis bag or
a, you know, err I mean I used to be a squash, a
semi-professional squash player and you know they certainly
didn't have anything that I would call a kit bag from days when
Reply "You know, a lot of sport, err if they had a rucksack
with some water in that would be, you know, about as big as it
got, you know a small rucksack. But it certainly wasn't a big
tennis, you know, things that you could put a tennis racquet
Reply "There was nothing of that size that you could hide a, a
tennis racquet in or anything like that, it would have been just
purely, if they had anything''
Reply "It would have been something that had their water in.'
1485 "So as
opposed to a bag it'd be something like a rucksack, if at all''
Reply "If, if at all, yeah.'
1485 "And is
that the same for Kate''
Reply "Yeah, yeah.'
"You mentioned early on, on the last interview as well, about a
photo. You spoke brief about a photo you'd shown, you'd shown a
Reply "Oh yes, I mean''
1485 "Where did
that come from''
Reply "Err where did the photo come from' That's a very good
question, err I'm not sure whether it was from Gerry's digital
camera or one of the digital cameras that we had there from my
recollection. Err but you know, it was, sorry I can't, I can't
remember exactly. I seem to remember it was one of the digital
cameras but that's about as far as it...'
1485 "Can you
remember the pose in which Madeleine was on the photo''
Reply "Err I can't, no.'
1485 "Did you
see the photo''
Reply "Err I did, yes. I mean Russell err was probably the most
instrumental in that side that we, you know he's very good with
computers and setting that side up, so he specifically went off
err you know to do that. Err you know, I mean we kind of
identified early like you know I have, I have seen the picture
and, but sorry I can't remember it.'
Reply "But Russell was, I say, you know that was where his
strengths was and he went down trying to link up the computers
and was good at that kind of (inaudible).'
1485 "Where did
the com, where did they link the computer up''
Reply "Err the err originally I thought it had been done in the
reception at the Ocean Club, not the Tapas bar, but then I
realised it was actually the Tapas bar, err sorry the other
reception as you walk through into the Tapas complex err there's
a room just on the right there err they'd got a computer and a
printer there err that's how they sorted it out.'
Russell did that''
Reply "Russell did that yes.'
1485 "Was that
at Gerry's request''
Reply "My, well it might have been Gerry's or mine, it was
something that we, you know, we, you know you're trying to think
what we should do in the circumstances and we thought right you
know a picture, we've gotta get a picture out because you know
everybody didn't know who Madeleine was so if people were
searching for her they needed a picture to identify her, but we,
you know, we were also convinced that you know she'd been taken
and there was a high chance that someone had got transport to
take her, given the way that we thought you know she'd been
carried off and err you know, we, well if, if, the worst
scenario if there was, if someone was gonna move Madeleine away
from that area, you know we wanted the, to try and get the, err,
the area secured. Therefore they would need a picture to see
who, to identify her so it was something that we were, those,
those two things we were, you know keen at trying to secure
that, you know, the picture was available and err the, you know
the roads were closed down in the surrounding areas.'
"How many photos were there''
Reply "Err again, I don't, I didn't see all the photos but I
know there was at least ten that were printed off, but whether
there was more than that I couldn't say but I know that there
was at least ten available.'
1485 "And they
were all of Madeleine''
Reply "They were.'
1485 "Were they
all the same pictures''
Reply "Err again, I would have to say I think so, I didn't see
all the copies.'
Reply "But I know that's what, you know, Russell said, again, I
1485 "Right and
do you know where they all went''
Reply "I don't know.'
1485 "Okay. Did
you take any photos on the night at the Tapas bar''
Reply "No I didn't.'
anybody take any photos''
Kate obviously raised the alarm.'
Reply "Not that I'm aware of. There wasn't, normally we're
quite snap happy but err we've only got a few pictures from the
second of May, then the third of May and then you know a few
days until err so there wasn't a great deal of pictures being
taken err you know obviously there was a few here and there,
Jane's quite keen on photography, I know she takes some nice
pictures and I'd taken some in the play area on the, the, err
the night before and we've also got pictures of the, the
afternoon from the beach and from the restaurant and then the
play area again and there's some pictures of us playing tennis
err with the times on, so you know that's about the last
pictures that I can recall. I've got our pictures and I've got
Dianne's pictures but I've certainly not seen anybody else's err
"What about the night before' The Wednesday night, did you take
any pictures, were any pictures taken then' Or did you see any
pictures being taken then''
Reply "In the evening''
because I understand that you stayed later on the Wednesday
Reply "We did, yes, err the pictures that I've got, there are
some pictures on one of the evenings and I can't say which
evening that was.'
Reply "My cameras will have the''
Reply "It'll have the date on there.'
Reply "But I, you know I can't remember which evening, I
thought it was earlier on in the week but err but again it
wasn't, it wasn't, you know in the evenings wasn't generally
camera time, I don't think people were that bothered really in
the evening and that taking pictures, it wasn't...'
1485 "Because it
would have all pictures of you huddled together and...'
Reply "Well it would yeah.'
Reply "That was it yeah. I mean as I say there's only like two
or three pictures I think we've got from the evening.'
When you had your beach hour on the Thursday, so you came off
windsurfing and then you had food at the beach bar, where was
Kate and Gerry''
"Err I mean they certainly weren't at the beach bar err you know
there was, as I say it was all parties apart, apart from the
MCCANN family and I wasn't aware what they were doing at that,
1485 "About, not
long after, well before sorry you went, you left''
Reply "I mean obviously Gerry was playing tennis''
Reply "Around that time because you know I knew that I was
going up to meet with Gerry.'
Reply "Sorry, but you know, I'll make that a bit clearer sorry,
when we were doing the water sports and that I know at some
stage I think we played tennis and that but I couldn't say you
know what, or they're in, you know the times we're around there
and I knew that Gerry was playing tennis around when we were
thinking of going back to, to walk up with him, to play tennis
in the evening.'
1485 "So you
knew as opposed to seeing them''
Reply "Well I, I knew Gerry was you know, around that time
sorry that he was going to be playing tennis, but I mean I don't
know, I couldn't tell you what they were doing earlier on in
1485 "Yeah. Did
you see Kate running along the beach at all''
Reply "I didn't, no.'
1485 "Around the
teatime ish side''
Reply "Err, again, again I, sorry to say this again but I, I
you know she'd been running quite a bit after Madeleine err had
gone, and, and again it just gets a little bit patchy and you
know, I know I saw her on the beach running, but whether that
was after or before I can't remember.'
00:13:25 Reply "That'd be something I'd probably, if I looked
at my statement if there's anything in there.'
Reply "I would be guided by that. Err I don't''
1485 "So you''
Reply "I don't think I did, if I, you know if you wanted me to
hedge a bet on that one then I'd say more likely I can't
remember seeing her running on that, that afternoon but I, I'd
prefer to have a look at my statement because I'm sure of at the
time of my statement I would have mentioned that.'
1485 "Okay. I'd
like you to describe Madeleine to me. What sort of a child she
is and you know how you see her.'
Reply "Mm, err Madeleine's err a very striking err beautiful
child, I'd almost if I want a better phrase call her doll-like,
you know she was very, you know I think, you know very unique
looking child err, she'd got very pretty, you know blonde hair
err in a bob, she was quite a petite err child and you know she
was very bubbly, very err you know she was a very good child to,
to interact with. She was very bright, you could have a lot of
fun with Madeleine err and you know she, she was, you know Kate
and Gerry's, you know pride and joy. They'd had a lot of trouble
conceiving, you know with IVF and everything and you know
Madeleine was their miracle. She was obviously very unique with
the fact that she'd got the, you know the iris defect err but
you know she was certainly a happy go lucky child you know she
was, she would interact with the other children very well, as I
said on the other, earlier recording, you know she played very
happily with Lily and you know indeed the other children. She
was, you know, very, she is a very beautiful child and good
00:15:30 Reply "You know I, you know a fact I've come across
already you know she was a, she's a very bright child you know,
she wouldn't be the kind of mischievous child who you know and
just try and get out of the flat and you know get up to mischief
and that, you know, there's fun in all children but she
certainly wasn't that kind of child. She was very bright.'
1485 "Moving on
then to the time that you, when you say after the alarm was
raised you went into the MCCANN'S apartment. Can you describe
the layout of the apartment''
Reply "If you're going in through the patio doors you walk
directly into the, err the living, you know, lounge space. Then
if you're going, walking through the apartment towards the front
door you have the kitchen on the, err right, which was a small
kitchen, which was boxed off from the rest of err open plan
living space. If you were walking from the patio doors into the
apartment and you were walking towards the front door and turn
left you would go towards the bedroom areas. Directly in front
of you, you had the bathroom err as you were looking at the
bathroom the door to the left would be the, the room where Kate
and Gerry stayed and the door to the right was err where the
children were sleeping. Err you know there was the double bed in
the err Kate and Gerry's room and as you went into err Sean and
Amelie's room there was a bed up against the far wall where
there was the, you know, was the window. There was another bed
parallel to that but across the other side of the room, err
along the wall where the door is where you walked into the
apartment. In between the two parallel beds was the, err two
cots also parallel with the space err between the two of them,
and obviously the twins were sleeping in the err cots and then
err Madeleine was on the bed which was nearest the door that you
walked in to get in there.'
1485 "Okay. When
you went in after the alarm was raised what was the bedroom like
at that point''
00:18:01 Reply "Err the, you know again I, it, it wasn't, it
wasn't dark, it wasn't really, really dark but it you know my
overall impression was the room was fairly dark. The, the
children as I said before were still err fast asleep, which
again you know we've discussed this you know over the months
that Kate and Gerry you know, as all children wake up you know
in the night and err you know with all the pandemonium and the
shouting, breaking, that they were still you know, fast asleep,
and err you know I wouldn't describe that I could see anything
in the room like there'd been, you know, clothes thrown around
the room or anything and disturbed and you know I, I noticed
that the bed was empty that Madeleine was sleeping in. Other
people have described that the bed was very neat and tidy but
that isn't what, you know, I could confirm.'
1485 "What was
the bed like that you can confirm''
Reply "I, I, you know, I, my note, visual note was she's not
there, the twins are there, you know I just ran out and you know
was wanting to, you know, run around like a headless chicken and
try and do something you know to be helpful.'
"How long do you think you were in that bedroom for''
Reply "Err as I say when I was there I wasn't actually, hadn't
walked in to the whole part of the bedroom, if anything I'd just
stepped in to the room just from the, err you know the doorway
perhaps just beyond the doorway, but I hadn't you know gone
right in to say like where the twins were or in between where
the beds were. Err again it's, it's difficult, it's difficult to
say because I could have well pop back more than once just, you
know, you know with Gerry, you know moving, you know we were
moving around so frequently, err I wasn't certainly there for
any length of time, whether it'd be a minute, you know that
would be something, or that I'd ever stayed at the maximum
because there was just so much else.'
Reply "You know going on with people running around etcetera.'
the holiday from the twenty eighth till the fifth, or till the
1485 "How many
times do you think you actually went into the MCCANN'S
00:20:33 Reply "Err probably more than other people as I said
there was the, there was one, there was the incident with the
cot where were trying to, you know, had some difficulty with one
of the cots that had been provided to err you know so and they'd
got the spare cot that you know so I had to go down and pick
that up and then I, I popped in there you know some other times
as well, I say I probably, in total during the week, I'd have
said five, half a dozen times I'd been to that apartment.'
1485 "Okay. Just
going back to the phone numbers, do you recall I told, or you
mentioned the Portuguese number''
mentioned to you that they'd sent you, or they sent to your
phone a text message on the fourth, which is the following, the
next day about twenty past ten, sorry two minutes past ten.'
1485 "And then
eight minutes past ten.'
1485 "Did you
actually speak to these people''
Reply "The, I mean, the other, there was a, the other person
who contacted me which I didn't mention while I was at the
Police Station was one of the Portuguese err newspapers and err
you know asking, you know for comments and err so that could
have been what the, you know, the number. I spoke, I did speak
to the other, the friends of Simon ALDRIDGE'S who you know who
kindly bought the phones and they actually bought the phones to
the Portim' Police Station and I went downstairs and got the
phones and then err brought them back upstairs. Err in terms of
you know whether I, we spoke to them on the next day sorry, was
that the question''
1485 "Well you
spoke to them on the next day, the next day yeah that Madeleine
went missing, on the fourth.'
when, well, there's text messages but what I'm asking you is,
did you speak to them''
"Err I don't remember having any text conversation with any err
Portuguese newspapers so I presume that Portuguese number, they,
sorry yeah the other, the, the other Portuguese person I spoke
with was err there was err a Solicitor in err Lisbon who err the
conversation it may well have been with Lisa LACARNIE because
that was a friend of their family who they, they've got a
business in the UK but they deal with Portugal and Lisa said if
you need any err Portuguese advice then there's err Paolo, and
again I've got his number in my other phone which might clarify
Reply "And err he err and I did speak to him again after that
day so it may well have been him just to say oh you know do you
want any help, do you want any advice, and err and that you know
that's how it was left at that, that stage so that might have
been, piecing it together from what you're saying.'
1485 "Do you
recall me telling you about the London number, which you
couldn't find in your phone''
"That number actually transcribes back to the Crime Specialist
Director in London.'
1485 "Did you
Reply "Err I did yes. My, err you know my sister err had been
in contact with them and she was trying to do everything that
she could knowing the, err, the difficulties that we were having
out there so you know I did approach them just asking for advice
but err I can't remember, I don't think I actually spoke to
anyone there, but for some reason that wasn't carried forward.'
Reply "But I mean, you know, just into the context of the
conversation you know we're in a strange country, we've got no
representeers we don't know what's going on, all hell's broken
loose and you know to see whether you can do anything to help
Madeleine come back, you know and that was the lines that we
1485 "Do you
remember who you spoke to''
Reply "I don't know.'
1485 "The call
was made on the following day at twenty three thirteen, so
that's late at night.'
1485 "You don't
recollect anything else about the conversation that you had with
that, was it you that made the call''
Reply "Err I, yeah I know that I got phone numbers from my
sister which I did you know ring them but I can't remember
making one late at night.'
"Okay. Okay just finally we'll come on to the, Kate and Gerry's
questions and you may have answered these.'
Reply "Okay yeah.'
1485 "The first
question is an obvious question. How long have you known Gerry
and Kate' And what kind of a relationship do you have with the
Reply "Yeah, err I say Fiona first worked with Kate err at an
anaesthetic registrar and I was doing research back in two
thousand, err so that's you know we ended up going out err for
the night and then you know we're very good friends ever since.
Err we went away to err Lanzarote err that was gonna be about
two thousand and three, they came to our wedding later in two
thousand and three. We went to Majorca with them a year later
and again had a very good you know holiday with them there. You
know we see them, you know re, you know quite frequently, we've
always got on extremely well. Err the more I know Gerry the more
I like the guy, err and it works great you know because Fiona
has a really good relationship with Kate, I get on really well
with Gerry, you know I get on well with Kate as well. Our kids
all get on well together and you know we, you know they, you
know they are just such lovely people they've got time for
absolutely every, anybody and to hear the things that have been
said about them again is just, you know it's completely err
heartbreaking really because they are, they're just, they are
the salt of the earth they really are.'
"Have you ever been at Kate and Gerry's home when their children
have been at home' And if so, how many times''
Reply "Yes, I mean we, err we know them when they were err
living at, obviously when they were at Queniborough first, we've
known Madeleine ever since, you know she's err been around and
we went over to see them in Amsterdam as well and you watched
Madeleine, you know, we were all the staying there together then
since the twins have been around we've been round as well so
we've been many, many times you know when they've been together,
you know the children have been there err so yeah.'
1485 "Were your
children present as well''
Reply "Yeah, yeah, you know because obviously between the five
children and we've known them ever since, before we've had
children and then when each one's come along you know we've
always been, you know each family's been pleased for the other
family if you like and there's always, you know wanted to be
available when you, your children are being born and
congratulate and to help and err and so I think you know ever
since we've known them and since we had children we've always
00:28:55 1485 "And the next question is have you ever been on
holiday with them before' Well yes you have.'
1485 "How did
they take care of the children at night when you went away with
Reply "Err when err we were, when we were, well when they came
to our wedding first of all Madeleine was very young then so you
know they kept her you know with them at all times. When we went
to err Majorca together it was a big err building you know for,
big enough for four couples and the family and we just stayed at
that particular err you know farm house, you know all the time
really so if, when the kids went to bed we were downstairs. Err
they, when we were there they were downstairs so they weren't
far away from err you know where we were staying that night and
err you know their kids slept very well that holiday and err but
you know they were, they were very close by and people were
passing by you know just to check on the kids upstairs because
we were having a bit more of a problem so you know there was a
lot of activity not far away from where their children were,
they'd all slept very well in that early part of the evening,
well I think through the night generally. So we were very close
by err we were, we ate generally in, in the place itself which
wasn't many metres away but you know certainly they were very
responsible and err you know certainly nothing.'
"The next question is, how often did you meet Kate and Gerry
during the holiday between the twenty eighth and the third' I
think we've already covered that haven't we.'
Reply "Yeah, yeah. Less frequently than probably other people
but we all met up, and certainly in the evenings and play time.'
1485 "How often
did you see Madeleine''
Reply "Sorry can I just go back to that''
Reply "I mean also there was times when we you know did the
picking up at the creche, you know Lily was always at the same
creche as Sean and Amelie so I would generally meet Gerry you
know err when we, when the creche had finished in the morning,
when, because that was the only time that err Lily went there so
I either, generally saw either Kate or Gerry at that time.'
Reply "So that was also another moment that we generally linked
1485 "Well other
than, because you played tennis on the third, so other than the
third was there any other times that you played tennis with
Reply "Oh yeah, err there was, you know one, one evening err
there was a fastest serve evening and we had a bit of fun all
trying to err you know out the machine which measured how
quickly you served, so you know, that was the evening that we
played, I'm sure there must have been another time that we'd had
a knock as well.'
"Have you ever felt you had a reason to become concerned about
Reply "During the holiday or generally' This answer's probably
the same anyway to''
I would think.'
Reply "No, err you know Kate and Gerry I think it's, they've
had you know the twins, it's never difficult, err sorry it's
never easy looking after twins, err my sister's got twins and
err you know and it was very difficult for them. Madeleine would
often get up in the night and go and sleep in the same bed as
err Kate and Gerry so I think their sleep patterns were pretty
disturbed and I always marvelled at how well, I mean I'd be so
much more tired than they were and, and grouchy but they never
were. They were never, I, I've never ever seen either of them
lose it with, with the kids you know err they, they you know
tell them off as any parent does but you know no, not
particularly forcefully you know as, you know and they have
they've always been such an even keel err that you know you just
have to admire how they've brought their, their family up, and
1485 "When was
the first time that you saw Kate and Gerry on that Thursday''
Reply "Thursday' Again, I can't, you know the only moments I
can definitely say is when I saw Gerry before the tennis and
then I saw Kate but you know there must have been some other
time during the day but I'm not sure.'
00:33:26 1485 "So seeing Kate in the apartment''
1485 "Was that
the first time that you saw her that day''
Reply "I, I can't, I can't recall seeing her before that but
I'm not saying that I didn't see her.'
1485 "Well we've
covered what time you got to the Tapas bar and who was there,
we've covered what Gerry and Kate were doing when you arrived,
did you speak to Kate and Gerry' Well you spoke to Gerry didn't
you' How were they behaving generally''
Reply "Err while we were at the Tapas''
1485 "When you
Reply "Yeah err you know as I said on the earlier err tape that
you know I, I'd had one of the best days and you know I was
saying that to Gerry and Gerry was going ah you know you
wouldn't believe what a brilliant day we've had and you know
it's one of the best days he's had there and he was, you know,
he, he's someone who is, you know, you know we were saying, you
know what a great week it worked out, you know really well you
know how ironic you know that's turned out to be but you know
that was generally the mood that evening. You know we were
coming towards the end of the, err holiday you know it was our
last but one night and err yeah it was just a really good, a
good mood, you know as I say if that's the only that, that's the
only thing that's peculiar about it, you know, but everyone
"It's got here, who left the table and why' Well we've discussed
that people left the table.'
1485 "To go and
look after their children, can you think of anybody who went,
who left the table that night to other than look after the
Reply "No, I can't, I can't think of any other reason.'
1485 "It's one
of the earlier interviews, somebody had mentioned that primarily
it was, other than Jane, it was all the males that did all the
running about, would that be about right''
Reply "I mean as I say I remember Matt and Russell going, I
remember Gerry going and remember the, you know, Jane you know,
err I can't remember whether Rachael left the table or not, but
Reply "Err I don't think, I don't think Dianne left the table,
I don't remember seeing her move.'
00:36:07 1485 "Did you see Gerald leaving the table during the
meal' Well we discussed that about why and what time, for how
long, and, but you said when he returned, did he act any
differently when he returned''
Reply "No, no.'
1485 "And again
these are sort of questions relating to the same thing with
1485 "So when,
did you see Jane leave the table' And what time' For how long''
Reply "Mm, err as I say I can't remember exactly how long
people left, the longest anyone left was, was you know I can
remember is Russell and again that was because in terms of you
know the food issue.'
Reply "And err but you know certainly everyone else I don't
remember them going for a particularly long time, I'd expect
them to walk up to the apartment, look at their, err respective
children and then walk back.'
"Obviously that relates as well to Matthew, which you've
covered, Russell which you've covered, Kate which you've
covered, was that the one and only time that Kate left the table
when she came back and raised the alarm''
Reply "I believe so.'
Reply "According to my memory yeah.'
your memory. And you described how she looked and you described
how she was behaving. Were you shocked about what she'd said''
Reply "I mean, the, you know the first, you know there's a
moment of disbelief you know or you know you look for every
plausible, you know, explanation in your mind which just goes
through very, you know filters through very quickly you know
could this have happened, or you know or what, you know but as I
say when she said it and the look on her face it was, you know
if a picture told a thousand words then you know. Again, you
know, Kate is just so reliable you know she wouldn't come
running down and saying, well certainly she's gone and then you
know thinking she's wandered off and then as it transpired you
know, then you know, what she was telling us after in terms
about the gate, but the look on her face and her saying she's
gone, it to me implied what had happened without actually
hearing anything else, just by the look on her face.'
Reply "But you know, again, whether that's also a little bit of
retrospectively, you know, (inaudible) on the situation, but I
can just remember the look on her face, she's gone.'
"Did you enter the MCCANN apartment' Well you did. Did you enter
the children's room' Which you did. You described what you saw,
you've said that you saw the twins. Did you notice anything
strange about it''
Reply "Err, as I say, you know about before, the amount of
screaming that was going on in the apartment and around and
everything that was kicking off and the fact that the two of
them could just sleep through it, you know, again, perhaps just
take on board saying that you know sometimes you know, they've
had their difficulties with Kate and Gerry with them sleeping
through and you know it was just very bizarre that they
continued to sleep through. Err you know I did notice obviously
that, the change in the, you know the blind and the err window,
but you know I can't accurately say it like other people did,
you know what, how exactly did they find it, I couldn't say.'
1485 "What do
you mean the change in the blinds in the window''
Reply "Well you know it was pointed out, the window was open,
the blind's not, you know, err down it's open, you know so those
things you know I was made aware of but err as I say I couldn't
tell you exactly how far down the blind was or how much the
window was open.'
"Did Kate say anything about the window and the shutter''
Reply "Err I'm sure she did but what she exactly said and you
know because we were, you know, the first thing you're trying to
do is work out how it could be opened you know, what was, you
know, err and you know the discussion whether it be open from
the inside or the outside but what she said I can't remember.
But also on the back of subsequent discussions that we had about
what may have happened, it's difficult to say without, or you
know things merge into one.'
1485 "What did
you do next' Well you took part in assisting in the apartment
then you did some searches with Russell and''
was saying, and you was with, who were you with' Russell and
Matt obviously. Okay, on realising that Madeleine was not found
within the first ten minutes, how did Kate react''
Reply "Err she was distraught and you know (sighs).'
1485 "And the
same for Gerry''
Reply "Yeah, I mean Kate, you know Kate generally, you know
more emotional than err Gerry was and then all of a sudden Gerry
would breakdown and you know just, you know saying she's gone,
you know she's gone, err Kate was more like that on a continual
basis throughout the evening. Err Gerry would still try and
function in between the moments of you know breaking down and
err you know and try to, you know, I had the discussion on with
phone and you know what, what we gonna do and err and then, you
know, they'd breakdown again, so there was''
"Considering that Madeleine had disappeared, what did you think
of their behaviour''
Reply "(Sighs) I mean it, you know I, whatever, it, it seemed
to be appropriate, I've never been in a position to see what
people are normally like after, it seemed completely appropriate
for what had happened and there wasn't one moment you know that
I thought that's, you know oh crikey they've taken that well or
you know, you'd expect them to be more upset than that or you
know, (inaudible) expected it if you haven't lived through that
1485 "I just
want you to think about this one here now, what did you do
between, I know you said that you did subsequent searches, but
up until ten o' clock the next morning, just tell me what you,
just go through your movements.'
Reply "What, sorry, in the''
1485 "Yeah so
you've started to take part in the searches and you've taken
part with Matt and Russell.'
done a bit of a loop of the''
1485 "Down to
the Supermarket. Just tell me''
Reply "I mean the''
1485 "You went
back, subsequently back to your apartment and then bedtime and
Reply "Yeah I mean my, my, you know a lot of the movements you
know the, initially with the sweep that I did straight away
round the complex I was on, you know I did that on my own err
you know, going up to the room, that bit I did on my own and
where I swept down to the beach and walked along you know and
shouted for Madeleine and seeing other people as I went along
you know that was purely, I was running and I was doing that on
my own. Then when I went back to the apartment, then swept up
you know at some stage looking up at the, the area above the
apartment to the side, looking in the rough err some rough land
which was on the way to the err Millennium err where we ate, err
and there was err bumped into Dan, he was looking, you know the
tennis pro, looking there you know err I say that was another
part of the search. In the meantime there was also, you know,
discussion with Mark Warner people and the Police immediately
outside the, err, the apartment err you know so there was, I
can't think of anything else to say.'
"So when did you eventually go back to your apartment''
1485 "To sleep
Reply "To go to sleep' We went back to the apartment about
four, four thirty err we slept err you know we'd got err Sean
and Amelie err over to the apartment, you know we'd got the
bedding done for Kate and Gerry and then we went sleep, we woke
up about six, six thirty err and then as I say, err, you know
Kate and Gerry were err you know were already awake, not that
they'd, you know, they'd slept sorry you know they were still
awake and err you know they, they'd been out searching already
looking to see what's happening. Again I remember Kate very
distraught you know, there was nobody outside the err apartments
and you know and it just felt like time was just ticking by and
you know nothing, you know appeared to be happening.'
1485 "And then
you spoke to Yvonne MARTIN around about nine o' clock you said.'
1485 "What did
you do up until nine o' clock''
Reply "Err I remember we were hang, you know I was outside
with, you know, with Kate quite a bit err just basically
looking, seeing whether anything was happening, err outside, err
I say there was, there was the local report and the news
journalist who came up as well at some stage, then err then
there was a correspondence between you know, with Robert MURAT
and the err Police who err arrived and you know trying to find
out what was going on. And then, you know, obviously we were
gonna be going to the err Portim' Police Station and then you
know we were waiting obviously for that to happen and err that's
about it really.'
"Okay when did you leave Portugal''
Reply "Err we stayed on for about another four weeks err after,
err I can't remember the exact err date that we left but towards
the end of May.'
1485 "And did
you see and meet Kate and Gerry''
Reply "Yeah, I mean''
Reply "I mean we, we, we tended to find that the best time to
meet up with them was err in the evenings, that was you know
they were trying to get through a hell of a lot of work, Gerry
was you know, you know working away, was trying to err you know
get things going and you know corresponding and ringing people
and err the err the, the Police, err the liaison team who came
out from Leicester you know when they initially came out I, you
know I hooked up with Kate and Gerry and was you know part for
the early meetings but then err Mike, you know Kate's cousin,
and err Johnny, you know they came out and they were, you know
they were, spent a lot of their time around (inaudible) and then
Trish and Sandy,
so they ended up
getting a very good team of people immediately around them who,
you know, they certainly wanted their, their help from whether
it be a practical err level err or advice, then you know they'd
got, so we were just really felt that you know at the end of the
day was the most appropriate time to catch up with them. I mean
obviously, you know, the, the televised, you know when we went
to the err church with err you know Kate and Gerry and err the
rest of the group err so you know probably out of the, of the
other couples there we, you know we tended to meet up most of
the time in the evenings and then we would you know go back to
the, err, the rest of the group and just, you know and try and
give some information about what had happened to Madeleine you
know. That's what everything was about you know, what's going on
you know, was there any information you know, and, we tended you
know to watch a lot of Sky news just to try and get any
information that we possibly could about what was going on, err
so that was kind of the main contact we had with them. Err
probably around less than a week, or around a week after
Madeleine had gone, you know we all met up as err a group and I
think in our apartment they, you know wanted to just touch base
with everybody you know we, we'd all been through that
experience and Kate and Gerry wanted to you know, again in the,
in the depths of despair that they would just see how everyone
else was and just you know err, err, and just you know there was
a real camaraderie, you know, mix of people who were there.'
"Did the original group all stay till the same time as you''
Reply "No we, we decided that we would stay out longer than err
the other, you know Matt and Rachael and Russell and Jane, we
didn't think it was a, certainly it was appropriate that we all
left together, it you know, I think no-one wanted to really
leave, they wanted to stay there as long as they could and you
know, and be a support for err Kate and Gerry but I think
obviously you know, I think other events were taking over and
really we, you know we were just, you know super, superfluous
for requirements and it was just like groundhog day, we were
just doing the same thing, you know every day, get up and then
wait till the end of the day and err you know I think certainly
others felt it was import, you know that as a, as a stage that
they'd reached where they felt it was appropriate to leave. We
certainly wanted to stay longer, you know, we were the, the main
friends for Kate and Gerry out the group there and err we wanted
to provide as much support as we, as we could and I think the
other thing was that Gerry ended up coming back to the UK and we
felt that it was a good time, you know, to support Kate and be
there while he'd gone so that not everyone had gone.'
00:51:14 Reply "Err because we felt that the people who had
been through that experience were the only ones who could really
know what it was it was like and err so you know and that's the
spot that we felt the bond, you know, with Kate and so we waited
till he'd done that and then it seemed like err the right time
for us to, to leave.'
1485 "We're not
far off now, during the holiday did you see Kate and Gerry speak
to anybody unknown to yourself''
Reply "At the, after Madeleine had gone or before''
Reply "Before, err they, they made friends with other people
who were in the complex err who you know we don't necessarily,
we didn't perhaps necessarily know they were at the time but as,
as the week went on you know it was obvious who they were and
err you know these were people that they were playing tennis
with who they'd had lessons with err apart from that, you know,
obviously all, all the nannies we got to know err there was
no-one, you know there was a few people who were slightly more
in the periphery who were the holiday makers there that we
didn't speak to as much, I might have seen Gerry speaking to
them but you knew them, they were primarily, you know, people
from the complex who were on holiday there. Err so there's
nobody you know you wouldn't expect them to be talking with on
a, on a holiday.'
Reply "In that, in the situation.'
"Did you see them in a car at all whilst you were in Portugal,
prior to Madeleine disappearing''
Reply "Err we all arrived you know at Praia Da Luz initially in
the taxi err apart from that I can't really recall.'
Reply "I can't recall err seeing you know err going anywhere in
1485 "Is there anything that you consider pertinent or relevant
to establish the material truth''
Reply "Err the, there are a few things but I don't think this
is the right forum for bringing those up.'
1485 "Okay. And
finally, Mr PRIOR touched on the re-enactment earlier on, I
think the re-re-enactment's likely to take place either at the
end of April or sometime in the middle of May. Do you see
"I will do anything in my powers that could be helpful to shed
light on what happened to Madeleine or bring Madeleine back, or
to change the status that Kate and Gerry find themselves in.
Though saying that, we have concerns regarding going back err
for a re-enactment and those points that we have you know raised
in a letter which I believe is being forwarded to the Portuguese
Police. Err what we would like to see is you know some detailed
answers to those points and we would also like to know that
everyone else is taking part in the re-enactment because if
everyone wasn't there then it doesn't seem that its particularly
err worthwhile and obviously you know, problems with the press,
you know, which would become very prominent the past twenty four
hours, you know I think we would certainly want some
reassurances err to you know, just, it'll address people to look
at the letter that we all sent and if you're kind enough to
answer those in detail then that is a, you know, an answer that
we would make in light of what the response was to those
Reply "But I wouldn't rule anything out.'
1485 "Okay. Is
there anything else at this particular moment that you'd like to
1485 "Okay. I
make the time err sixteen twenty five.'
00:55:53 Male knocks at the door, DC MESSIAH leaves the
00:57:01 DC MESSIAH re-enters the interview room.
1485 "Just one quick question David, just, you know the, we
talked about the phones earlier on.'
1485 "The number
**, did you find that in your phone''
Reply "Err I, I'll have another look but I don't think I did.'
1485 "Can you
just have another look''
Reply "So its **''
00:58:06 Reply "Err I can't see it' I can't see it in this
1485 "Does the
name SG mean anything to you''
Reply "It does yeah, that's my, err brother in-law, my other
brother in-law, well my sister, sister's husband.'
1485 "And where
does he live''
Reply "Err he lives, the, the phone number which you've got
which is the **.'
Reply "That's, err, he lives there.'
Reply "Market Harborough yes, and sometimes it is easier just
to chat and, you know if they were out and about on his mobile,
he uses that one more, so I'm more likely to chat with my
1485 "Does he
work in London at all''
Reply "He does yes.'
obviously the calls on the fourth of the fifth at eight o nine
and at nine fifty one and at ten fifteen, ten sixteen I beg your
pardon, on the fourth, two calls and one text message. What, can
you remember what the nature of those calls were''
Reply "Err what to S, to Ss phone''
1485 "Or S
called you I believe.'
Reply "Yeah, err I mean, the general gist of it was how, you
know how are you doing you know what's going on, err and is
there any help that you know you can have, you know that was
generally the gist of the text and things. I mean I can find
exactly, if I can find them on my phone or I can let you have
them, but you know it was just obviously my sister, she was very
concerned and she was doing everything that she could to be
supportive towards obviously Kate and Gerry.'
1485 "Okay, well
thanks for that. Okay then, I'm gonna switch the tapes off now,
it's now sixteen thirty, just (inaudible) sixteen thirty.'
01:00:40 Male knocks at the door, DC MESSIAH leaves the
01:02:37 DC MESSIAH re-enters the room.
1485 "You thought we'd finished didn't you.'
Reply "I know.'
Reply "Not quite.'
1485 "Not quite,
no. Not long now to go. Okay, I'm just gonna go over these, this
phone issue again.'
Reply "Yeah, yeah.'
1485 "I just,
there's just some areas that I've been asked to point out, or
been asked to speak to you about.'
1485 "Who lent
you these phones that SA had organised for you''
Reply "Err I mean, S brother err is a gentleman called Nand N's
wife N had got friends out in the Algarve and they were just you
know basic people who were just willing to help us in whatever
capacity it was, whether we wanted a room for the night or
anything and they asked is there anything we can do, err whether
they could do, and err and that was, you know, that was one
thing we said well actually you know err Kate's phone's nearly
ran out, we're sat, we don't know how long we're gonna be at the
Police Station you know could, you know, can they, you know is
there any way of getting phones to us just so that you know, we
can, for communication. Err and err so that was, that was a
capacity really err of people.'
"And where were these phones, when did these phones arrive''
Reply "Err when did we get the phones' When we were at the
Police Station, err you know as, you know I just asked whether I
could just pop downstairs there was someone who's brought us
phones and they said yeah, so I quickly popped downstairs, got
the phones, and took them back into the Police Station. Err I
can't remember if there was any power in them when we opened
them up but err so then that was, you know, so the phones were
just, you know because we hadn't got any other, anything there,
1485 "And what
phones were they' Do you remember what sort of, what make they
Reply "Err they were Samsung phones, err and I think they were
Vodaphone SIM cards. Err the actual model, I can't tell you the
Samsung phone but they were, something like the Samsung three
hundred, something like that.'
1485 "Yeah, how
many phones were there''
Reply "There was, there was two err and we ended up, err again,
we ended up keeping one and Kate and Gerry had one, I think we
gave the second one to Kate and Gerry as well after a while but
we were err you know because they'd got credit put on to them so
we were just using those phones rather than run up the expense
of our own phones.'
01:05:33 Reply "So err yeah.'
1485 "So the two
phones, you've kept one and gave one to Kate and Gerry''
Reply "Kate and Gerry yeah.'
1485 "And do you
have the numbers of those phones in your phone''
Reply "I don't, no, no.'
1485 "Where are
these phones now''
Reply "Err as far as I am aware that they, you know, remained
in Portugal, again''
Reply "With Kate and Gerry.'
1485 "So Kate
and Gerry took possession of that second phone which you had''
Reply "Well, they certainly kept the first one, the second one,
the second one, sorry, no I think that's rubbish. I think I, I
may well have got the, I might have got the second phone.
Actually I've got a sneaky feeling when I got home I tried the
UK SIM card in it and it didn't work so I could well have got
the second phone.'
1485 "So is it
likely that this second phone is at your home address''
Reply "Err that is a strong possibility.'
1485 "So two
Reply "Yeah, yeah.'
1485 "One is, to
your knowledge, still with Kate and Gerry.'
1485 "The other one you may well have at your home address.'
Reply "Yeah, yeah.'
1485 "Did you
use the phones often''
Reply "Not a great deal no, no, it was, it was, first of all
you know we didn't have any numbers in them already and then
with being a Portuguese phone you know it was just a bit more
difficult so we, if we ever used them, I mean which wasn't
often, we'd perhaps call Kate and Gerry using the Portuguese
phone, but it wasn't a kind of religious oh we'll just use the,
that Portuguese phone to err you know establish communication.'
01:07:23 Reply "Err you know and the other reason that we, we
had the, one of the phones is because Fiona didn't have a phone
either so you know, so it's like she had the use of the other
phone as well.'
1485 "Right, so
out of the two of you then, who predominantly used that phone''
Reply "I'd say Fiona.'
1485 "And has it
been used since it's been in the UK''
Reply "And I'm just trying to think you know how much, you know
the, the, I can't remember you know obviously we were there for
four weeks after but when the actual credit ran out, because I
remember the credit running out and not being able to actually
put anymore on even though it's supposed to be quite straight
forward but again, you know whether that was after, you know,
three weeks of being out there or whatever I can't remember.'
1485 "Yeah, how
many times do you think you topped it up then''
Reply "I don't, I don't think we did, I don't think I did. I
don't think I could work out how to do it to be honest.'
1485 "So when
both of them arrived both of them had credit on them''
Reply "They put, I think they put, I think err I think they put
forty pound credit or forty euros, you know, which seemed to
last a lot longer than the amount of credit we were (inaudible)
we were using our own err mobile phones.'
1485 "Just wait there a second I'll just (inaudible).'
01:08:40 DC MESSIAH leaves the interview room.
01:09:00 DC MESSIAH re-enters the interview room.
1485 "All done.'
1485 "The phone,
is it likely that I could collect it when I take you home''
Reply "I can certainly have a look for it and I can give you, I
mean if you, if you wanted to have my other mobile phone with
all the numbers in and you know if you can access text messages
on that you're welcome to have that phone.'
1485 "Okay, do
you know where you'd be able to put your hand on it if you''
Reply "Err the Samsung one, again, there was a Vodaphone bag
that was knocking around, and that would be where it is if err I
can find it. Fiona might know.'
perhaps you could give her a call or something.'
Reply "Yeah, yeah.'
then, it's now sixteen forty on this date.'
01:09:48 The interview ceased at 1640 hours when the
tape recorder was switched off.